Host Monique Akanbi sits down with culture architect Tony Moore to discuss what makes a good boss. Tony offers insights into the best mindset for leading a team and what leaders at every level can do to set their employees and business up for success.
Host Monique Akanbi sits down with culture architect Tony Moore to discuss what makes a good boss. Tony offers insights into the best mindset for leading a team and what leaders at every level can do to set their employees and business up for success.
This podcast is approved for 0.5 PDCs toward SHRM-CP and SHRM-SCP recertification. Listen to the complete episode to get your activity ID at the end. ID expires Oct. 17, 2025.
Rate and review Honest HR on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Monique Akanbi:
Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for informed and aspiring HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities.
Amber Clayton:
Every week we chat with industry experts to bring you insights, trends, and actionable advice through relatable stories from the real world of HR.
Wendy Fong:
Honest HR is a SHRM podcast, and by listening, you're helping to build a more engaged workforce and drive organizational success. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Monique Akanbi:
And I'm Monique Akanbi. Now, let's get honest. Hello and welcome back to Honest HR. I'm your host, Monique Akanbi, membership initiatives director with SHRM, and I am super excited about today's episode. We have none other than a dear friend of mine, Tony Moore, and we're going to talk about a topic that, we're going to ask a million-dollar question, actually, a topic that is really important and Tony's going to share just some really key tips around what does it mean to be a good boss. So in recognition of National Boss Day, we're going to ask that million-dollar question, what is a good boss? And so if I think back to my own personal experiences, I can tell you very distinct qualities in some of the bosses that I had that will qualify them as a good boss. So during our time together, we're going to identify what are those qualities from communication to trust, to even our results and outcomes and building a team. And so welcome to Honest HR, Tony.
Tony Moore:
Oh, I'm so excited to be here. It's good to see you.
Monique Akanbi:
Yes.
Tony Moore:
In all your glory, doing this thing you do now.
Monique Akanbi:
Yes. Thank you. So for our audience, there is a phrase that I learned from Tony years ago when we met, and it is, that's cool.
Tony Moore:
That's cool.
Monique Akanbi:
We're going to make sure that we embed that into our conversation together. But for our audience who does not know who Tony Moore is, tell us who is Tony Moore?
Tony Moore:
Wow. So, well, I am the culture architect, when I started our business about eight years ago, that was the title I came up with. And it was mainly because I knew that my focus was going to be on organizational culture in some fashion. And so basically our company, the simplest way to think of it is our company helps leaders get out of the weeds, and that is our main focus. How do we help you get out of the weeds, accelerate your leadership maturity and create this culture of radical ownership on your team? And then we do that from the stage. We do that in some one-on-one coaching. We do that in some of our roundtables. And then of course, we do a lot of, quite a bit of deep dive culture work with organizations and with teams.
Monique Akanbi:
So that works hand in hand in terms of being a culture architect. And then also along the topic that we're going to talk about today, which is what makes a good boss. So my very first question, I'm just going to dive right in, is in your opinion, what is the difference between a good boss and a good leader?
Tony Moore:
Yeah, a good boss and a good leader, interestingly enough, obviously I think that, I know it's national, where this is in celebration of National Bosses Day, but there's a lot of resistance to the word boss. Mainly because of the way it sounds. But I would answer your question by saying you can't be a good boss without being a good leader. So you have to be a good leader in order to be considered a good boss as far as I'm concerned. So I think that's what, there is no differentiation between the two. You either are or you aren't.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah. I want to dig into that a little deeper and kind of take the approach of what makes a good leader, and then also as you become a good leader, then that, what qualifies you then for that boss title? Or is there such thing that qualifies you once you've become a good leader, so what's a good leader?
Tony Moore:
So let me go the other direction and then I'll answer your question. So I would say that a good boss is the person who on Bosses Day gives gifts to their staff. That would be a good boss. It's Bosses day, so I want you to see me doing good things as your boss. So if you take that, I would say then a good leader is the person who is continually on the lookout for it to ensure that their members of their team have everything they need to be wildly successful, and they spend a good amount of their time blocking and tackling and getting obstacles out of the pathway of the people that they lead. So I think if you do that, people won't have any problem seeing you as their boss.
Monique Akanbi:
That's a great way to put it. And actually makes me think then being a boss is more of modeling the behavior of a leader.
Tony Moore:
Absolutely.
Monique Akanbi:
That popped to my mind when you said, on Boss Day, I'm giving gifts, right? So I immediately thought modeling the behavior of a leader.
Tony Moore:
Yes.
Monique Akanbi:
Got it.
Tony Moore:
Absolutely.
Monique Akanbi:
I love that. I love that. Now, what would you say are some of those key qualities, and we're going to use boss and leader interchangeably for this conversation.
Tony Moore:
That sounds good.
Monique Akanbi:
So what would you say are key qualities?
Tony Moore:
So key qualities of a good boss or a good leader, however you frame it, I think there's a couple of things for me that come to mind. Number one, it is someone who is fully invested in ensuring that their teams are successful. So they understand that it's not about me the leader, but it's about this group of people that I lead. I was just at a conference in Alabama this past week, and one of the things we talked about in our breakout session was that you want to be a leader, that people follow by choice, not a leader that people follow because you hold a title. And so how do I create an environment where people want to be a part of what we're doing, they want to be a part of where we're going. And I think those are the qualities of a good boss.
So they have that ability to not, just to be inspirational, obviously that can be helpful, but it's just being the kind of person that people want to be on, to use the good to great phrase, they want to be on the bus with you. And they don't really care where the bus is going as long as you're on the bus with them. So I think that's, when I think about the qualities of a good boss, that person's able to create that kind of an environment for their team. I also think right along the same lines is they do truly care about the people that they lead. So they care about them as human beings, not simply as people that are on the team. I always felt like the greatest compliment I could ever get as a boss would be for someone's spouse to say to me, I don't know what you all are doing at work, but he or she is a better person at home than they used to be. Which means that I've fundamentally impacted who they are as a person and not just the work that they do on our team.
Monique Akanbi:
That's powerful. That is really powerful. And it speaks to the whole person approach, not just the employee, not just because of the outcome or the output based on the work that they perform, but I'm really here to treat the whole employee, the whole person. I love that. And with that comes a level of emotional intelligence. And thinking of that, what would you say, from an emotional to intelligence standpoint, how do good bosses lead or what's the importance of emotional intelligence in leadership or being a good boss?
Tony Moore:
Yeah, that's a loaded one, but I will say, it is deeply important. But I think to kind of sum it up, there's this self-awareness that is necessary in order for me to be a good boss. Unfortunately though, the way I see myself in the mirror may not be the way other people are experiencing me. So a good boss or someone who wants to be a good boss has also created not only the culture, but created a mechanism for people to be able to give them feedback about the way in which they're experiencing them as a boss. So I personally tried to make it a regular occurrence during my coaching sessions to ensure that at some point in time, part of our focus was going to be on how am I doing with you?
And one of the ways that I did that was to, you probably have heard me talk about it from the stage, is that start, stop, and continue. I'd ask them to, before they come to that meeting, to send me in writing, I would like Tony to start, fill in the blank. I would like Tony to stop, fill in the blank. I would like Tony to continue, fill in the blank. And then I could review that and we could get together and talk so that I could understand how I'm actually impacting them as a leader. And that will help you with, that'll help increase some of your self-awareness because now I know how I'm actually impacting you.
Monique Akanbi:
Well, I am going to share in the moment, a few years ago when you shared start, stop and continue with me, I implemented that as I was leading a team. And that was very powerful because we see ourselves in one way. I am very much of a person that is go, go, go, let's conquer the world. And I wasn't aware in the moment that I need to pause, my team needs to pause and I need to pause as well. And that was feedback I received. And so I just wanted to thank you for sharing even that tool of start, stop, and continue. And I think that that may have been five or six years ago that you shared that with me, and that was a very powerful tool, especially along the realm of emotional intelligence.
Tony Moore:
Thank you for that.
Monique Akanbi:
So Tony, what is the best piece of advice that either you received from a boss or a mentor about leadership?
Tony Moore:
Yeah. So, man, a lot, I've been blessed with some really good mentors over the years in the workplace. People who saw things in me that I didn't see in myself. But a couple of things come to mind immediately. One of them I say all the time, and that is surround yourself with people who will tell you when you have broccoli in your teeth, because that's what you need. You need people around you who are going to tell you the truth, because otherwise people are going to just do what you want to do. And the reality is, you're frequently wrong. As my wife would say, I'm frequently wrong, but rarely uncertain. And that's a true statement. So having people around me who will point out when I'm off or when they disagree is important. And then I think the second thing, second advice I got that was just really, really helpful and I said a little bit earlier, and that is they just made it clear that leadership wasn't about me.
That this is really not about you. All of the growth and development and training and all of that, is so you can have a positive impact on the people that you're leading. It is not so you can be celebrated as a leader. It is about bringing that team along. And that was really, really good advice for someone who, like you said earlier, for myself, I'm a go getter. I've got a high drive for results. I'm low patience. I just want to go, go, go, go, go. So knowing that I needed to concentrate on what everyone else needed and not just what I needed was really, really good advice for me as a leader.
Monique Akanbi:
Awesome. That's really good. And as you were talking, it made me think of a story you shared from one of your keynotes years ago, and I think that it is relevant to this topic today. And so I'm just going to ask you to share the story, if you can recall, around you going off to school and your mom writing you a note.
Tony Moore:
Oh, wow.
Monique Akanbi:
I'm pulling from the archives.
Tony Moore:
Yeah. And I don't, and it's a personal story, so I remember it. That's good. Wow.
Monique Akanbi:
Well, it resonated with me, and it is something that I took, just in being a leader, it was just advice that your mom gave you. Different situation, but something that could be applied to being a leader. And it just helped me. So I would be selfish if I did not ask you to share that with our audience.
Tony Moore:
Well, I will share it. And for those of you who know what the Reader's Digest is, I'll give you the Reader's Digest version. But I would just say that I was a freshman in college and I was, one evening my roommate and I went out for some pizza, and when we left the pizza place to walk back to campus, it was after dark and we were heading back and we were standing at a corner and this car came up to the intersection, motioned for us to enter into the intersection across the street. And when we did, the driver of the car hit his gas pedal and his car hit my roommate, knocked him to the ground, and the car, and along with his occupants, they sped off and they were yelling racial epithets at us. And so we got back to campus, obviously shaken, angry, all the various emotions, all of our friends wanted to load up in the car and let's go handle our business.
Thank God, cooler heads prevailed. But I was sharing that story that evening, that night with my mother, and she initially was pretty quiet, and then she began to remind me of things that she tried to teach me about the world and about things I would encounter and all of that. And about a week later, or a few days later, I received a letter in the mail from her and the letter, it literally just had these words written on the piece of paper, a smooth sea never made a skillful sailor. And it was, I get emotional just thinking about it, but I will tell you, it has served me so well throughout my life. That everything that happens has the ability or the potential to make me a better father, a better husband, a better friend, a better leader. It all depends on how I respond to the thing that actually happens to me. And so I have used that over and over again over the course of my leadership. So a smooth sea never made a skillful sailor, and thank you for letting me bring my mom into this conversation.
Monique Akanbi:
A wise woman. But the reason why I think that that is important, because we're talking about being a good boss, but in being a good boss, it does not mean, or being a good leader does not mean that you're not going to encounter those rough seas.
Tony Moore:
Yes. Yes.
Monique Akanbi:
It doesn't mean you're going to encounter those obstacles. I really thought that that was just...
Tony Moore:
Yes.
Monique Akanbi:
I carry that with me, and so yes.
Tony Moore:
Yes. And actually you are. I often say that leadership and discomfort are inseparable. If you're not having periods of discomfort, you probably aren't leading. I mean, there's just no way to do that work and not have periods of discomfort. And so understanding and accepting that as a reality can help you navigate those rough seas when they come up.
Monique Akanbi:
I carry that close to me on my leadership journey, so thank you for indulging me and sharing with our audience that story. What do you think are common mistakes bad bosses or bad leaders make outside of it being self-serving, because what I hear from you is that, at being a good leader or being a good boss, it is not about you, but what are some other common mistakes?
Tony Moore:
Yeah, I think one of the ones that I see a lot that is very, very common, and that is we use words, but we don't define the behaviors that exhibit the words. So we may say, hey, I need my vice presidents to be more strategic. And then I'll say, so what would they be doing that would tell you they're more strategic and you can't tell me? Well, if you can't tell me what more strategic looks like on a day-to-day basis, how are they ever going to learn to do the thing that you want them to do? So we use these words, but we don't always get down to what are the behaviors that actually demonstrate those particular words.
Monique Akanbi:
What does that look like?
Tony Moore:
Yes, yes. What does the conversation look like?
Monique Akanbi:
Yes. What does that conversation look like?
Tony Moore:
Yeah, so literally the way I just said it. So oftentimes I'm talking to the CEO or someone at the vice president, senior vice president level, who's contacted us about doing some work with a team or with their organization. And they usually have, I always want to know from them, what is it that they are... What are the outcomes that they're looking for? What are the problems that are going on that made you call? What I find is that most of the time what they're describing are symptoms. So they're symptoms, they're not the actual problem. So they'll say, we have silos. Well, silos are a symptom of a problem that creates another problem, but it's a symptom of a problem.
And if we don't actually diagnose the root cause, our intervention is not going to work. So as we talk about, as an example, those silos, and that usually leads to the conversation around, they're too myopic. They don't think largely enough. And I say, so give me some examples of what thinking large looks like. So if I were working for you and you said, Tony, I need you to be more strategic, or I need you to think bigger. Give me an example of what it looks like when I'm doing it and what it looks like when I'm not doing it. Because in order for me to get better at the thing you want me to do, I need to know what the behaviors are that are leading to you believing that.
Which is why I would always ask them, how would you know? How would you know if, I don't think that my leaders collaborate enough, how would you know if they were collaborating? What are you using that's telling you that they're not collaborating? Because whatever that is, that may be related to collaboration or it could be related to something else, and we don't want to do a class on collaboration when you actually have relationship issues. If the issue, the reason they don't collaborate is because they don't get along. Me doing a class on how to collaborate is not going to help them. Matter of fact, it's only going to mask the actual root cause, which is the problem within the relationship. So is that helpful?
Monique Akanbi:
That is very helpful. I take that, I wasn't expecting you to take that angle, but I mean that was really helpful even for me, just in terms of and thinking of mistakes that are made and it's words that are used, but there's not the demonstration or even just the articulation of the action behind the words that are used. And if I think about mistakes that not so good leaders make, I would've never made that connection, but that is very, very, very powerful. Thank you for sharing that.
Tony Moore:
You're welcome.
Monique Akanbi:
For those that are looking to be a good leader, what is maybe one skill or mindset, and I know that that will be tough, but one skill or mindset or shift you would recommend that they focus on?
Tony Moore:
Yeah, you're right. There's so many things that, and depending on where they are in leadership and where they are and what level they're where they need to focus. But I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I think in many ways, it still comes back to you continually asking yourself, how can I deepen my impact on the people that I'm leading? And only the people I'm leading can tell me how to do that. So at the end of the day, I need to know how to best lead Monique. I need to know how to best lead Andra. I need to know how to best lead anyone I'm leading.
And that may be different from person to person, but I need to actually have a conversation with them about really what works for them, which is, one of the reasons I would always ask a new employee when we were interviewing for sure, but didn't really get into the details when they joined the team there's, the last time you had a boss that you were working for and you were just wildly successful, what was it about them that really helped you? Because when you answer that question for me, that tells me what's important to you, and I can begin to figure out how can I deliver that same result with you? What was it about them, and the follow-up questions so that I understand why it's important to you, and then I want to determine how to best do that with you. So I think wherever you are in leadership, have conversations with the individual members of your team and understand how to best lead them would be the best thing that you could do.
Monique Akanbi:
What I gather from this conversation is, I think in being leaders and managers or however we define ourselves in our own respective spaces, rather than focusing on the work or the process, focus on the people that will then result in the work or the process being done. And so, again, I know we preach this all the time, but at the core, it is about the people. If I were to just kind of sum up what you shared it is that you focus on the person, or focus on the people, or you focus on the team, everything else will eventually fall into place.
Tony Moore:
Yes, yes. And that is so true, that all assumed that, but understanding that I just posted something on LinkedIn earlier today, that for all of your work on being transparent and honest and all of these great leadership qualities, you still have to deliver the goods. So at the end of the day, you still have to deliver, and sometimes you don't have the right person in the right seat. Sometimes you don't have the right person on the right bus. So sometimes there's difficult conversations that have to be held because this just is not the right place for this person to be. So there's an expectation that everyone on that team is going to deliver the goods, but I'd rather build the relationship and let that lead to the delivery of the goods versus focusing only on delivering the goods.
Monique Akanbi:
Yes. That's really good. Oh my gosh, this is so good. Tony, I could sit here and talk to you forever.
Tony Moore:
Yeah, you too. I could talk to you forever.
Monique Akanbi:
Well, with that, we are going to start wrapping up today's episode, but I do want to give space and an opportunity, in recognition of this topic, is there anything else you want to share with our audience?
Tony Moore:
Yeah, I think that, what I would say is if you're currently in a leadership position or you desire to be in a leadership position, count it as a sacred trust. Count it as something that you are literally asking people to follow you. To be a part of something that you're trying to build or you're trying to create, and therefore you want to do everything you can to rally them around what it is that you're trying to do, and not let it be a situation where they're doing it simply because you're making them do it.
Now, I ended up here in Florida because I joined a CEO who I had worked for five times in the past during turnarounds. I mean, that's what brought me here. And the fact that he said to me, you're going to be the most hated person in our organization for a while because of all the changes we have to do. I need you to understand that. How do you feel about it? This is exactly what I said to him. Are you going to stay? And he said, yes. I said, then let's get in that foxhole and go to work. Because I want to work with you and where we do the work, it's irrelevant. I just want to be with you with whatever you're trying to do.
Monique Akanbi:
Wow. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. Tony, thank you so much for being our guest today. If you haven't already, subscribe and follow Honest HR, however you listen to our podcast. Also to our audience, reviews have a real impact on the podcast visibility. So if you enjoy today's podcast, leave a review and help others find Honest HR. Feel free to reach out to me on social media. I am Monique Akanbi on all social media channels. And also subscribe where you can reach our podcast if you go to SHRM.org/hrdaily. Thanks again for joining us on Honest HR.
Speaker 5:
This podcast is approved to provide 0.5 professional development credits or PDC towards SHRM-CP, and SHRM-SCP recertification. Enter this PDC activity ID into your SHRM activity portal to claim your credit. 25-HGGQP. Once more, that code is 25-HGGQP. Please note that this code will expire October 17th, 2025.