Civility is a cornerstone of workplace culture that allows people and businesses to thrive by fostering respect and empathy among everyone. However, according to SHRM research, U.S. workers report that incivility is increasingly prevalent in their workplaces. In this episode of Honest HR, host Wendy Fong speaks with TrainXtra Chief Civility Officer Sejal Thakkar about her framework for helping organizations make workplace civility happen, the elements of effective civility trainings, and the business imperative for creating civil workplaces.
Civility is a cornerstone of workplace culture that allows people and businesses to thrive by fostering respect and empathy among everyone. However, according to SHRM research, U.S. workers report that incivility is increasingly prevalent in their workplaces. In this episode of Honest HR, host Wendy Fong speaks with TrainXtra Chief Civility Officer Sejal Thakkar about her framework for helping organizations make workplace civility happen, the elements of effective civility trainings, and the business imperative for creating civil workplaces.
Visit SHRM's Civility Hub to learn more about how you can foster respectful dialogue and SHRM’s 1M Civil Conversations initiative. #civilityatwork
Earn 0.75 SHRM PDC by listening to this podcast; details provided in-episode.
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Monique Akanbi:
Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for HR professionals, people managers, and team leads, intent on growing our companies for the better.
Amber Clayton:
We bring you honest forward-thinking conversations and relatable stories from the workplace that challenge the way it's always been done. Because after all, you have to push back to move forward.
Wendy Fong:
Honest HR is a podcast from SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management, and by listening, you're helping create better workplaces and a better world. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Monique Akanbi:
And I'm Monique Akanbi. Now let's get honest.
Wendy Fong:
I am your host, Wendy Fong, manager of event technology innovation at SHRM. Nearly two-thirds of US workers have experienced or witnessed incivility in their workplace within the past month. One-third of US workers believe workplace conflict will increase over the next 12 months. The struggle is real. At SHRM, we believe civility is a cornerstone of workplace culture that allows people and businesses to thrive. Civility is a catalyst for ensuring the work experience fosters respect and empathy across the exchange of ideas and opinions. SHRM believes everyone can play a role in transforming workplaces to be more civil, one conversation at a time.
This podcast is eligible for 0.75 SHRM PDC toward the SHRM-CP and SHRM-SCP recertification if you listen to the full episode. We'll share the activity ID at the end of the podcast. Let's start the conversation now with our guest, Sejal Thakkar. Sejal Thakkar is on a mission to educate and empower people to create a world where everyone is treated with dignity and respect. Sejal is an employment law attorney, a two-time TEDx speaker, and the founder and chief civility officer at TrainXtra, a women minority-owned training consulting firm where she helps leaders create positive, safe, and respectful workplaces through customized training and coaching. She is also the chief culture officer of Nobody Studios. A venture studio that aims to create 100 compelling companies. She is responsible for cultivating a people-first culture at Nobody Studios. Thanks for being on Honest HR, Sejal.
Sejal Thakkar:
Thank you so much Wendy for having me on this podcast. I'm looking forward to sharing my insights and experience on this very important topic.
Wendy Fong:
Absolutely. And it's certainly very timely during our SHRM civility campaign. So before we dive into the topic of civility, let's talk about incivility. With today's socio-economical and political landscape, there's no denying we are divided society. So what's happening? What's going on?
Sejal Thakkar:
Yeah. You're right, Wendy. The current landscape is definitely challenging. It's been complicated. We're having to deal with things that we've never dealt with before and having to look at things in a way we never have before. As you mentioned in the intro, I've been doing this work on helping foster civil workplaces since 2017. So in my mind, this issue has been ongoing and incivility has ... We've been needing to address it for a very, very long time. And some of the statistics you've shared and that you're going to be sharing during our conversation today show that incivility is definitely on the rise. And I've identified a few different factors that I believe have contributed to why incivility has skyrocketed. I'm happy to go into those if you'd like.
Wendy Fong:
Yes. Please share. What have you seen in society, in the workplace?
Sejal Thakkar:
I'll start by saying that let's get on the same page with the definition of what do we mean by incivility? I think that's an important starting point because everybody could define incivility differently. And so when I talk about incivility, what I'm talking about is behavior that is ... It's on a spectrum. So it could be rude, disrespectful, aggressive behavior. It could be subtle things. It could be things like eye rolling, interrupting someone, ignoring someone all the way to the more overt actions. Insulting someone, bullying someone, shouting at someone. So it's on a whole spectrum. And these behaviors are really, really harmful. So in my opinion, based on what I've seen as an employment law attorney and the work that I've done, especially since the pandemic, the global pandemic was something that has really caused an increase in incivility. It's impacted both employers and employees alike.
When you have people that have lost family members or loved ones, there was this period of isolation, separation that has impacted people physically and all the way to mental depression and mental health struggles. So when you have these kinds of issues coming from the global pandemic, it causes people to be more disruptive, more confrontational. They're less civil and they're less tolerant in their behaviors. So that's definitely one of the issues that I feel like has contributed to the rise in incivility. The other one is civil rights movement. We can't have a conversation about civility unless we acknowledge the waters that we're swimming in. So all of the systemic problems that were happening before the George Floyd situation that happened there had been going on for a long time, really just created bigger gaps when you look at the wealth gap, the health gap. And so when you have historically disadvantaged or marginalized groups that are getting the short end of the stick, they were hit a lot harder by COVID. And so that creates all this fear and bias and uncertainty that have also contributed to the rise in incivility.
Wendy Fong:
Based on SHRM research to your definition of incivility, we've seen that 36% have observed addressing others disrespectfully, 34% have seen interrupting or silencing others while they're speaking, and 32% have experienced or seen excessive monitoring or micromanaging as the top forms of incivility in the workplace. So like you mentioned, it's at a culmination of what's going on in society and the gaps that you had mentioned. And also on top of that, this year is an election year, which always puts people at edge as well.
Sejal Thakkar:
Absolutely. And I'll add a couple more, Wendy, to that list. We've had some major things going on. Globalization because of the pandemic. Now everyone is sitting at their computers and we're talking to people in all different countries. I just did a training last week for a company out in India. I had a training out in Europe somewhere. So now you have globalization that's bringing people together from different cultures and different religions and different ethnicities into contact with each other. So now what might be okay for us here in one culture as being acceptable can be perceived as being rude in a different culture. And so these differences can cause friction between people if we don't know how to deal with them properly or if we react negatively to those people or those interactions. That friction can turn into conflict pretty quickly. And so globalization is another big one.
And then also I want to just highlight and really separate this one out from just everything else, because this technology. We're working remotely now. That is huge dynamic shift of people that were in the office and now everyone's behind computers, they're glued to their laptops. So it gets hard for companies and employers to keep those normal structures in place that keep our workplaces and people safe. We have to look at things differently. And so one of the areas that I dealt with a lot was when everybody was scrambling to set up remote workplaces, I was in there saying, "Wait a second. Let's not forget about the workplace incivility that can happen using technology." Whether you use Zoom, whether you use Slack, whether you use whatever that incivility, it doesn't just only happen when you're face to face, it happens online. Workplace bullying, it's increased like tenfold. So I think that is an important thing to keep in mind for both HR and for organizations in that we have to look at civility and how we foster civility in a whole different way than we ever have before because these things weren't really there or they weren't as significant.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. Absolutely. Technology is great in terms of connecting us wherever we are in the world, but also there's a great responsibility that comes with that, like you mentioned, and all the ways that we communicate via technology, like Slack, email, Teams, texting, social media. Even email can be misconstrued in a different way and seen as aggressive or incivil depending on how it's written.
Sejal Thakkar:
And I know we're going to talk about that next is how do we promote civility? Because this requires everybody to be part of the solution. It's not something that we can just say, okay, I'm talking to this one group, and how do we foster civility there? I think it's important that everybody recognizes that we all play a part in fostering civility, whether you're in HR, whether you're a business leader, whether you're whoever. You're walking down the street and someone bumps into you, and how do you respond to that? And so I think if we all just take ownership of the fact that the incivility that's happening is happening because people are making bad choices. And so if we could make better choices, we can really get towards civility, which is I think what we're going to be talking about.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. Just going down the list of all the reasons contributing to incivility, it's very overwhelming. And you mentioned fear too, and all these things going on in AI creates fear. Fear of the unknown. And it adds to the list where people are less taller and less patient because there's so much going on in our world. We're always constantly connected. Always constantly connected with the news and current affairs and how it's impacting every part of our lives and we never can shut it off. It's always going on and around us.
Sejal Thakkar:
Yeah. And you mentioned about it being an election year. I don't want to just let that comment go without addressing it. It is an election year, and so political tensions are high on all sides. And so organizations definitely can't turn a blind eye to this situation. There is things that organizations definitely have to do to make sure that they maintain civility at least within the four walls of their organization.
Wendy Fong:
Yes. Absolutely. So how does an organization make workplace civility happen? Where should business leaders, people managers start?
Sejal Thakkar:
Yeah. I've created a framework that I call the CAPS framework. If anybody knows me, if you've seen my TEDx talks, I love acronyms. And so I've created a framework which is basically a comprehensive civility action plan. So basically it's like a roadmap to creating a workplace culture that is not only high performing and productive, but also civil, inclusive and forward-thinking. And so taking into account all the things we just talked about and why here, what we need to do to move forward. And so the C in this framework stands for clarity. So this is where you have to really define what civility means for your organization because we've heard all that. People are just being too sensitive. Or we look at it differently. Well, okay, so that's why this has to be customized to that organization. You have to actually define what civility means. Truly means. Not just the superficial concept, but it going deeper than that. What is the definition?
So I'll share a definition with you that I use in my workshops and in the presentations I give of a definition of civility that I really think is effective. And again, this is Dr. Cynthia Clark. She's a leading expert in helping foster civility. She's done some great research out there. She says that civility is where you have an environment where you have an authentic respect for others. And that just means that you value and affirm the worth of each individual. So you need to have authentic respect. So that's one element. But the second element is that it requires time, presence and a willingness to engage in genuine discourse. There's a lot in that.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah, there is.
Sejal Thakkar:
Time, presence, and a willingness to engage in genuine discourse. And then the third thing is with an intention to seek common ground. So that's a definition that I build my workshops around. And when I talk about civility, I really look at it from that. So the first step in the CAPS is really to define what that is so that people understand what it means, but also it sets the expectations and standards so everybody knows, okay, how do I need to align my behavior to this definition? And if it's not a definition that you agree with, then it's not the right place for you. Then you just don't work there and you go somewhere else. You don't have to work somewhere where your definitions don't align. But if you don't define it, then people can't make that decision about do I want to work here or not? And what do I need to do to make sure that I align my behavior with those expectations? And then so once you define it, then you make civility one of your core values. You integrate it into your core values. So I just tell people, my clients have civility as one of your core values. People call it different things. Respect, trust. However you want to define it, but it needs to be integrated into your core values. So that's what the C is for.
Wendy Fong:
So C, clarity, is essentially the roadmap. And based on that definition you gave from Dr. Cynthia Clark, being authentic, respectful, having time, presence, willingness, and then tension. So what if someone says, I don't have time for this, or I'm not willing to do this work?
Sejal Thakkar:
And that's really the great question, because when somebody says that, then that means we have to coach them. We have to work with them, we have to train them, we have to educate them, we have to empower them, we have to give them the language, and we have to let them know that this is a requirement. This is how we're going to be treating each other here. And so a lot of times when people say that, it's because they don't feel empowered to actually do it. But as an organization, when you take a firm stance that we are going to have civility be a part of our culture, and here's our framework that we're following, here's the definition. And then the next thing is accountability. So when you have people that are not willing to align their behavior with a core value ... Which you work for any company, you have to align your behavior to those core values. Those are shared core values.
So accountability. So when you have somebody, whether it's a senior leader, whether it's a frontline manager, whether it's whoever that works for an organization or is involved in the organization, then we have to hold people accountable for their actions. And so the only way you could do that though is if you've clarified what that really means. And then you have to have the systems in place for tracking and addressing these ... I call them incivility violations. You have to document incidents. You have to conduct investigations. And then you have to take appropriate actions based on the severity of that behavior. And so it's very similar to what you would do for your anti-harassment, except it's a lot broader, and it has to be more comprehensive because we're talking about a lot of different kinds of behaviors. And I'm talking about both intentional behaviors as well as unintentional behaviors. Microaggressions, for example, that stem from your unconscious bias. So I'm also including microaggressions in my definition of incivility. So how I'm looking at the whole spectrum. So you have to hold people accountable. And I think one of the things to keep in mind for HR folks is you absolutely need to have ... I recommend considering having an explicit policy devoted to civility. This is very different than just being respectful in my opinion.
Wendy Fong:
So C, clarity, A, accountability, and then to the CAPS, next is P. What does P stand for?
Sejal Thakkar:
The P is for promotion. So we want to make sure that these aren't just things that we're putting up on our wall. We want to make sure that everybody is empowered to actively promote civility within the organization. So we want to make sure it's a lived practice. So making sure that the leaders are setting the right tone for the organization. Their behavior speaks volumes, and it also inspires everybody else to do the same. So making sure they're leading by example. And when they're not making spaces to have conversations with them so that you can let them know in a respectful, non-judgmental way to let them know that, hey, this behavior right here makes me feel uncomfortable. And have those conversations right when that happens and create those spaces so that the leaders are leading by example. And then again, if they're not, then holding them accountable.
Communication becomes a huge thing here about being open and transparent. Making sure that everybody understands that this is a priority for the organization, and making sure you regularly communicate that. The importance of civility. So it's not just a once-in-a-while thing. This is an ongoing conversation. And you can use your various channels. For example, the work that I do at Nobody Studios, I'm their chief culture officer. So sometimes I'll send company-wide emails, I'll be at meetings talking about civility. I'm putting things in Slack about how our leaders can promote civility within their teams. And so it's something that I'm constantly telling our leadership team, and I'm doing myself to remind everyone there that this is something that we value. And then there has to be training and education. One of the workshops I offer is on civility, but there's a lot that goes into civility.
It's about effective communication. You have to know how to resolve conflict. You need to have those conversations and trainings on diversity and inclusion, including unconscious bias and microaggressions. These training programs are so important because they really help everybody understand that it's not only important to foster civility, but it also gives them the skills and the tools so that they can do their part. Wendy you know this. I would get so frustrated when I would do the anti-harassment compliance trainings, and then it was only geared towards managers. And I'd be sitting there saying, "What? This is ridiculous. It's not only the managers that are harassing people, it's everybody." And so this is one of those things in civility, especially where every single person needs to be part of these trainings. And then the last thing, part of promotion, some of the best practices is I tell my clients have civility ambassadors. Designate certain people. Because there are some people that can be advocates for civility, that like to resolve conflicts or they're skilled at it and they know how to promote respectful behaviors. And so ask people. See if people are willing to be civility ambassadors. So you don't want it to just be one person, but have two or three where people feel comfortable going to that person and talking to them about what they might be experiencing. We'd rather deal with it proactively and promote it actively than after the lawsuit happens.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. Exactly. And I know all companies and business leaders want to avoid any type of workplace conflict to reach those levels. So P, promotion. Having ongoing conversations providing every employee in the workplace the skills and training the education to be effective conflict resolvers. So if I were to bring civility training to my workplace, would you make this training mandatory for everyone? Or as you mentioned, not just people managers like we do with anti harassment training?
Sejal Thakkar:
I get asked that question all the time, Wendy, and my answer is always, I don't think it's a good idea to mandate people to attend these trainings. But I would say strongly suggest that this is an important priority for the organization and encourage people to attend and make it something where people can voluntarily come. So that means you have to take into account different time zones, different types of technology, look at how you might be able to get those people. Somebody may say, "Okay, I don't want to go to a training," but like I said, I'm putting things in Slack. They're going to see it in different ways the information. I don't like making things mandatory for a reason because this is about empowerment. This is about people wanting to change their behavior. And I don't think you can force people to do that. You can give information, you can mandate people there and you can share information, but if they're not wanting to change their behavior or willing to consider at least changing their behavior, then there's really no point to doing any of it. So that's just my opinion on that.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. No. That is a great point to make that if you make it mandatory, it doesn't necessarily empower people if they're forced to do this training if they're not behind it. But it also does remind me too, it does fall back on how is the workplace culture? Do you have a culture where people are excited to learn these new tools and want to have the conversation because they want to make the workplace better and they see what's going on in the workplace and the toxic behavior that's going on in the workplace? So I would say it also falls back on HR and the organization to create that workplace culture where they feel like, yes, I want to take this training on my own because I want to create a healthier workplace.
Sejal Thakkar:
Yeah. And ultimately, if somebody decides not to attend a training but engages in behavior that's uncivil, then there's all the other steps that we're talking about. Part of the policy that you put together that deals with civility is going to have very specific examples of what is considered civil or uncivil behavior. It's going to outline the responsibilities of everybody, including the person that didn't attend the training of what they have to do to foster civility at work. It should also have reporting procedures. So there should be clear instructions in the policy on how to report these types of incidents. Because there are some situations, and I'll just make this point, where somebody wants to report the behavior, but it's not like a formal discipline thing. They're not trying to get the person in trouble or fired, but what they want to do is basically put that person on notice like this is making me feel uncomfortable. Can you please stop?
So there has to be other ways of looking at how do we report? You got to have multiple channels. Make sure that you have ways that people can report anonymously. The policy is also going to go through the investigation process and what are the consequences of behaving in an uncivil way. So for that one person, for example, that didn't attend the training, it's okay, because the policy is going to say what they need to align their behaviors to. And if they don't, then we have to hold them ... Again, going back to the framework, hold them accountable for their behavior. So then my advice would be if that person at that point, depending on obviously what the incident was, is to recommend they go to the civility training if their behavior is coachable. There are some things that are so severe that you got to take more egregious measures too.
Wendy Fong:
So what is the difference then between would you consider as incivility versus harassment?
Sejal Thakkar:
So the whole point of having civility as a core value is we want to address the behavior right when it starts to happen so it doesn't rise to that level of ever being harassment. There's always these severe incidents. There's always situations that are harassment just one time. But most of the things that get to the point of being a discrimination complaint or a harassment complaint start off as minor offenses. Somebody telling a bad joke, someone hitting on somebody, making an inappropriate comment, engaging in a microaggression that oftentimes is not properly dealt with at the beginning. So then the behavior goes unaddressed, and then it continues and continues and continues, and then it turns into a lawsuit. So we're flipping that entire script, or at least I am in the work that I do to say, well, let's not wait. Let's start putting people on notice right away because you may not know, and you may have good intentions, but you don't know what I've gone through in my life and now you're saying something that's offending me, but you have no reason to know that unless I feel comfortable saying, hey ... Or if somebody else that witnesses inappropriate behavior.
For example, you're in a meeting and somebody keeps interrupting the same person, but they're not interrupting anybody else, and you notice that that person is maybe of a marginalized group. That could be an example of a microaggression. And so in that situation, we need to empower people on how to interrupt that situation or how to properly deal with that situation so it doesn't escalate. Now, most likely, that person has no idea that they're doing that because if it really is a microaggression, it stems from their unconscious bias so they don't even realize they're doing. It isn't about shaming that person or blaming that person or making them feel bad. It's literally to educate that person to say, "Hey, I don't know if you know you're doing this, but you keep interrupting Sejal and she's trying to say something." And now that person is on notice. And that's really the whole goal is to put the person on notice in a respectful, in a civil way. So now, if they really didn't mean that they're going to do their best to not try to do that again, so it doesn't escalate. The behavior should change. And if it doesn't, then we need to hold that person accountable.
Wendy Fong:
And you mentioned this earlier, to be proactive and prevent these microaggressions or incivil comments and actions to reach the point of harassment too. And I think that's a great point that if we were with accountability with C, clarity, A, accountability P, promotion to empower all workers to be essentially allies, to feel like they can interrupt and say something, not just people managers and business leaders, but all workers in the workplace.
Sejal Thakkar:
That's the perfect segue into the S of my framework, which is sustainability. It's about making sure that it's a priority for everybody, not just one or two people, not just the leadership team, not just HR. But that it's a priority for everybody in the organization because culture is made up of everybody in the organization. So everybody needs to know how to handle these situations. And again, you might engage in an uncivil way, like you're rude or you're unprofessional, but maybe for you, you've just gotten away with it and nobody has said stop. When you think about situations where you see senior leaders that are toxic leaders, how do they get there? They've been doing that pretty much the whole time, and everybody knows about it in most cases, but they still get there. And so a lot of these behaviors have become normalized in a lot of organizations.
And so we're having to make sure that we go back and we unlearn those behaviors and relearn new behaviors or civil behaviors for the purposes of this conversation. And then I think I'll just add for sustainability, you want to make sure this is an ongoing thing. So once you've been clarified, here's what civility means in the organization, you have accountability, you're promoting it actively within your organization, and now we're looking at sustainability. So part of that is leadership continuity like I just said. Everybody needs to be accountable or understand that civility is a priority, especially the leaders. Especially, but I'm saying everybody. And then also you want to make sure that you're getting feedback from everybody on what their experience is like. And we can't run from it. We can't be afraid of it. So you're looking for the feedbacks, and there's lots of different ways. You could do surveys, you could do exit interviews, you can do performance metrics. You want to have feedback mechanisms.
But you have to find as many ways as you can to get feedback from people about their experiences. And not everything is quantifiable. So there has to be some ways of getting that qualitative data. You can't quantify everything. You have to measure that impact of are we doing this right? And there's going to be times where you're going to hit the mark, and there's also going to be times where you're going to miss the mark, and that's okay. This is an ongoing thing. We have to be humble that we're going to make mistakes as we do this work, but let's be open and transparent that we're trying to do it and do our best to align our behavior to that core value. Obviously, I'm passionate about this topic.
Wendy Fong:
No. I love it. I love it. And I love that acronym. It's easy to remember, CAPS. C, clarity, A, accountability, P, promotion, and S, sustainability. Measuring with quantitative and qualitative data. Having those ongoing conversations. Getting feedback, whether anonymous or non-anonymous to make sure that the civility program or culture that you put in place has continued to be encouraged amongst the entire workplace. So say I'm in HR, I'm ready to bring in the civility training into the workplace. How would you recommend or how do you see what are good components of good successful workplace civility trainings?
Sejal Thakkar:
So this is such a great question. I do these workshops, and I've been doing them for a long time now, and I think engagement is the first thing that HR needs to be concerned about. If you're going to be doing these programs or you're going to be bringing in a trainer, or you're going to be doing it yourself, however you're doing the workshops, engagement is always important. I just revamped my entire workshop again because I was like, you're talking too much. Get an activity in there. So I literally went through and inserted interactive activities every three, four minutes in my workshop because I want to make sure that people have an opportunity to talk about what I'm sharing with them and participate in the conversation. So it's really more of a conversation versus a training. And that's what's going to get that engagement going with everybody there.
And I think, again, we need to be very clearly and define what is acceptable and unacceptable. Let's not run from that. And again, it could be a whole range of incivilities, like we talked about subtle and not subtle. I have a slide that actually talks about rolling your eyes, interrupting people. So I have very specific examples because some people might look at that slide and say, that's just ... If every time somebody roll their eyes ... You want to know who those people are and you want to understand their side of the story and then make it very clear that we're not saying you're rolling your eyes at somebody every once in a while. We're saying, if somebody thinks and has a problem with it, we're going to have to deal with that behavior. So you can't run from what that is. And then I think it's also important for training programs to make sure that you're addressing certain topics.
So the ones that I think are super important to make sure that the training has diversity and inclusion.
I think unconscious bias, it has to be a part of that conversation because microaggressions happen so often and they're so common and they're so frequent that they cause a lot of harm. And so that causes a lot of incivility. We need to address that. It's lacking severely in most of the compliance trainings or diversity inclusion trainings. Even those don't go into microaggressions in the depth that I think they need to because it's hard to pick up on them and you really want to make sure people have the verbiage and the scripts so it doesn't backfire. And then I think bystander intervention is a huge component and should be of civility programs. We want to teach people to be ... I like to say, to be an up stander. Not just a passive bystander, but someone who's going to take action when they witness incivility in the workplace. So those are some of the things that I think are important.
Wendy Fong:
So talking about unconscious bias, if someone was rolling their eyes or interrupting a coworker, and they may not even be noticing that they're doing it, it all starts with being aware, being conscious of where your biases come from. Let's unpack that a little. For example, if we were in their training, how would someone start to become aware of their own unconscious biases? How would they have the tools to examine themselves that they're doing something in the workplace that is making another colleague uncomfortable?
Sejal Thakkar:
Well, and most people don't know that they have unconscious biases. Most people don't understand what unconscious bias is. So that's the starting point, is to provide training to every person within your organization on what is unconscious bias and give them some tools. So in my workshops, I give everybody three different tools that they can start using right away. It's all about empowering people. So they need to do the work on themselves to figure out what their unconscious bias is. And it's a lifelong process. So it's not like you just take one little ... One of the tools I share is the Harvard Implicit Association Test Project Implicit, and it's broken out into all these sections. Last time I checked, there was like 14 or 15 different sections. Race, disability, sexual orientation, and so on. And so you sit down and it's a free online tool. And it just gives you an idea of what your natural preferences are so that when you're making important decisions, you can remember that, wait a second, I tend to lean in this way, so make sure I have objective information that I'm not making this based on unconscious bias.
So it's all about empowering people. Because once you help them understand what their unconscious bias is, then you can explain to them what microaggressions are. Because a lot of microaggressions happen by people who have good intentions, who are actually good people, who would never intentionally harm somebody. So we have to have that conversation that it's not about the fact that you're intentionally harming somebody, you are unintentionally causing harm. But the only way we can get to that conversation is people understand what unconscious bias is. And so I feel like there's definitely ... the way that I've set up my workshops ... A series of eight to 10 different workshops. They build on top of each other. You can't just have one session with all the information. My first session of civility, I talked about all these different areas, and then I have subsequent sessions that goes deeper into those areas.
So it's an ongoing learning process, and that's what you want to do. Is you want to create a culture of learning where people understand that this is what we do. This is not a one-time event. This is an ongoing process of learning and improvement, and we're continuing to make that a priority. So you have to put the money behind it, you have to put the resources behind it. There's no other way to do it. But if you do it, the benefits ... And again, the statistics you shared speak for themselves, but the benefits really outweigh the negatives.
Wendy Fong:
And that's a great free test as a starting point to see where your employees are coming from. You said it was Project Implicit, right?
Sejal Thakkar:
Correct.
Wendy Fong:
The Harvard University free online test.
Sejal Thakkar:
Yes.
Wendy Fong:
Great. So someone could just search that online, and that could be a great starting point to address the unconscious bias, have conversations about microaggressions. And then you also mentioned too bystander intervention. Let's talk deeper into that. How someone could reach to that point where they feel empowered to be an ally, essentially. Not just passively if they were to witness some sort of microaggression or unconscious bias or incivil action taking place, how can I take action to promote civility?
Sejal Thakkar:
Yeah. It's such a huge, huge part of the equation to foster civility. People need to know what to say and how to say it and when to say it. And you really have to break it down for people, because most of us have never worked for a place where we felt safe speaking up about certain things. It could be a new idea. It doesn't even have to be incivility. It could be a new idea. I have a new idea of how to do something, or I don't like the way this person looked at me. So most of us just don't deal with that. We just let it go, right? We'd rather not deal with those kind of situations that maybe cause stress or conflict. It causes someone to feel uncomfortable with having that difficult conversation. But that's why we have to give them the tools on how to do that, right?
So in my civility workshop, I go through a detailed framework, really spelling it out. If you're the person that committed the microaggression, here's what you do. If you're the person that witnessed the microaggression, here's what you do. And if you're the person who experienced the microaggression, here's what you do. And so you have to get that specific and provide people with the tools. And then I also give them a two-page handout that gives them lots of different examples of what microaggressions are. Because people don't know what they are. Most people don't even know what microaggressions are. And so you want to give them examples, a definition of what it is, and give them examples of what it is. And then you want to give them specific scripts, language that they can say in those situations if they're dealing with it. And so now you're giving that information to everybody.
So if you hear someone using that language with somebody else, or you are having a conversation and somebody's using that language, it starts becoming your shared language. And it takes away that stigma that, oh my gosh ... it just creates this openness, this psychological safety so that people can have these conversations. And it doesn't have to be a big deal if you see someone interrupting somebody, for example, because we've used that one, it's not like you're trying to get this person fired or making a big deal out of it, but it's letting them know what they're doing. So you could pull that person ... If you do this right, you could say it right then and there during the meeting. Hey, I would love to hear what Sejal has to say. I value her opinions. You could say that right in front of everybody because everybody trusts each other. They know each other.
We're letting each other know like, hey, well, here's how I feel about that situation. It was nerve wracking at the beginning to get used to that. But once you start doing that and it becomes a norm, it creates this environment of psychological safety where people can come with you with their new idea or new concern, and it just takes away all of that process, that system that all we've done building all these years really has never worked for everybody. So it gets rid of all that. Because now you're dealing with me and I'm dealing with you, and we're going to figure this out together. So now when you need my help, when you need me to have your back, I'm going to do that because I have a relationship with you. And we both are agreeing to treat each other with civility. So it changes the entire dynamics of the culture.
Wendy Fong:
And certainly it doesn't happen overnight. Like you mentioned with the training, creating the policy, taking away the stigma, creating a culture of psychological safety. It takes time and effort and having the patience that we're all human and we're all aiming for that shared common goal. I think because we all want to be respected and we all want to be able to be an environment where we can be our authentic selves. And also practice empathy to others when we have disagreements.
Sejal Thakkar:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Wendy Fong:
Based on SHRM research, I did also want to share too that having civility in the workplace is a business imperative because we're seeing HR professionals rate workplaces that are uncivil experience twice as likely to say their organization has high or very high turnover based on workplaces that consider themselves civil. So even just bringing to your business leaders that this is impacting profitability at the workplace because of all the high turnover that's going on, if employees don't feel like they have that psychological safety and a culture of civility at work. Sejal, is there anything else that I hadn't asked you or you wanted to mention before we conclude our conversation?
Sejal Thakkar:
No. Thank you so much. This really was an incredible conversation that we had. I think I'll just end with just a couple of best practices about what you asked or what we talked about, about the election year and political tensions running high. What can organizations do? I'll add a couple of things on that just because I think it is something that is so important that ... We're not really talking about it, and I don't really see organizations doing what they should be doing about it. It's like everyone's kind looking the other way, and I'm like, ugh, that is not what we need to be doing right now. So one of the first things I would say is set ground rules. Set clear guidelines as to can we have political discussions at work and what they look like, and making sure you emphasize obviously respect and professionalism. And you want to make sure you're not just doing this as a top-down approach. That never works.
You want to make sure you get the buy-in from everybody to create these rules. So somebody can write a draft, but then circulate that to everybody and get feedback on it. You have to get the buy-in for this to work. And then if there is incivility, so somebody's having a conversation and it becomes disrespectful or heated, somebody slams a fist down or slams a door down or anything, you need to address that immediately. Again, just follow your civility policy and make sure that you address the behavior to prevent that and to reinforce the importance of civility. And then I think it's also important that managers ...
And I don't think we train our managers, especially the frontline supervisors and managers properly, but I think that definitely there's some work that needs to be done there with regards to equipping those middle managers. Because if they get to the top, they should know how to do this. I know many cases where they don't. But let's just give it the benefit of the doubt. So at least starting with the frontline managers and middle managers, we have to give them more skills in how to mediate conflicts and really intervene and maintain that civil work environment. So especially during the politically charged times. So middle managers are the ones that see it. They need to know what to do and how to address it. So just wanted to throw those out there. But thank you again, Wendy. This was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it.
Wendy Fong:
Those are really helpful tips and appreciate you sharing the conversation about how we can bring more civility into the workplace. So really appreciate you taking the time and sharing with our listeners how we could promote more civility in the workplace. And thank you listeners for listening. I encourage you all to be catalysts for change by engaging in civil dialogue at work and beyond. Explore our civility hub at shrm.org, and you can join SHRM in starting one million civil conversations using the #CivilityAtWork.
And as we mentioned at the top of the episode, this episode is eligible for 0.75 SHRM PDC toward SHRM-CP and SHRM-CP recertification. After you finish listening, enter this activity ID into your SHRM certification portal. It's 25-Z as in zebra, 5, Q as in quail, 4, 2. 25-Z5Q42. And the activity ID expires March 8th, 2025. Sejal, how can our listeners find and connect with you if they want to reach out to you?
Sejal Thakkar:
Sure. You can reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn. You can look me up there. Sejal Thakkar on LinkedIn. I'm very active there. Or you could drop me a line on my website. There's a form there. You can contact me. It's TrainXtra. And that's T-R-A-I-N-X-T-R-A.com. Or you could just drop me an email at Sejal at trainxtra.com.
Wendy Fong:
Great. Thank you so much, Sejal.
Sejal Thakkar:
Thank you, Wendy.
Wendy Fong:
Take care.
Sejal Thakkar:
Bye.
Wendy Fong:
Bye.