Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings, perspectives, or experiences of another person, and for workplace leaders, empathy is a communication skill that helps transform debates into conversations premised on understanding of shared experiences. In this episode of Honest HR, host Monique Akanbi is joined by workplace consultant and Ellequate founder/CEO Nicole Armstrong to discuss topics including the relationship between empathy and vulnerability, leveraging empathy to create safe spaces to communicate at work, and how to lead with empathy while also instilling accountability among employees.
Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings, perspectives, or experiences of another person, and for workplace leaders, empathy is a communication skill that helps transform debates into conversations premised on understanding of shared experiences. In this episode of Honest HR, host Monique Akanbi is joined by workplace consultant and Ellequate founder/CEO Nicole Armstrong to discuss topics including the relationship between empathy and vulnerability, leveraging empathy to create safe spaces to communicate at work, and how to lead with empathy while also instilling accountability among employees.
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Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by WorkLeap. Imagine transforming your workplace into a hub of high performing engaged teams in just days. With WorkLeap's intuitive employee experience software, this vision becomes a reality. Dive into seamless onboarding, insightful pulse surveys, and empowering training that sparks employee performance across your company. Curious? Discover how at Workleap.com. Workleap, make work, work.
Monique Akanbi: Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for HR professionals, people managers, and team leads intent on growing our companies for the better.
Amber Clayton: We bring you honest, forward-thinking conversations and relatable stories from the workplace that challenge the way it's always been done because after all, you have to push back to move forward.
Wendy Fong: Honest HR is a podcast from SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management. And by listening, you're helping create better workplaces and a better world. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton: I'm Amber Clayton.
Monique Akanbi: And I'm Monique Akanbi. Now, let's get honest.
Amber Clayton: Now let's get honest.
Monique Akanbi: Hello and welcome back to Honest HR. I'm your host, Monique Akanbi, SHRM-CP, Director of Membership Initiatives at SHRM. On our episode today, we're going to talk about the topic of empathy in the workplace. This podcast is approved to provide 0.75 SHRM PDC towards SHRM-CP and SHRM-SCP recertification. We'll share the activity ID at the end of the podcast. What is empathy? Why is it important? And what can leaders do to further demonstrate empathy? Our guest for this podcast is no stranger to Honest HR and has previously shared how to make workplace equity happen. Nicole Armstrong, founder and CEO of Ellequate. Welcome to Honest HR, Nicole. I'm excited to have you back on our podcast and to talk about a topic that is a critical leadership skill, empathy. So Nicole, for our listeners that may not have heard your previous Honest HR podcast recording, please share a little bit about yourself and your company.
Nicole: Well first, thank you so much for having me. It's incredible to be back. Excited to talk about this really important conversation. So as you mentioned, I'm the founder and CEO of Ellequate, and when we think about our workplace systems, we can often think that they've been stuck in the past for decades, but our workforce is constantly evolving, and this gap means that we're not really hitting the mark on engaging with our employees or meeting their needs effectively, and that's actually where we step in. Ellequate is here to bridge that gap. And so we work with employers to help give those outdated systems a much needed update. And we want to make sure that our workplaces aren't just fair, but that they're really inclusive spaces that work for everyone. And so we do that through a couple different ways. We do have a cutting edge analytics platform where we dive really deep into the nuts and bolts of an organization, we highlight areas for improvement and we shine a light on what's working well, but we're also building an ecosystem of support.
And we do that with one-on-one coaching, we guide HR leaders through every step of the transformation process. And then our national standard for workplace equity sets the bar, but it also celebrates employers who are really walking the talk, making real, tangible strides in creating equitable workplaces. And so we're not really about making tweaks here and there, we're about foundational changes that ensure that every employee, no matter their background, feels valued and understood because we believe, and as you all might know, that when your systems reflect the diversity and the dynamism of your workforce, that's when you can truly thrive.
Monique Akanbi: Thank you so much for sharing a little bit about Ellequate, Nicole, and a little about yourself as well. So let's jump right in to empathy. When we think about empathy, it is a critical leadership skill which helps build and sustain positive workplace relationships, empathy fosters diversity and inclusion, and it encourages collaboration and cooperation and also facilitates conflict management. And when I think of empathy, it makes it possible for individuals to work cooperatively with each other who have very different experiences, preferences, styles, opinions, backgrounds, you name it. And with millions of job openings nationwide, what I have seen is that employers are working around the clock to identify, recruit, and train new talent while striving to engage their current workforce. And based off of research that SHRM has done and other organizations as well, what we have found is that especially over the last few years coming out of a global pandemic, empathy seems to be a key to success.
Now, when I think about my experience with empathy, I often think about the time where I was practicing HR and I had an employee and a manager that were really just like oil and water for that moment. They just were really butting heads. And the manager was just very metrics focused. It was a call center. And at the time, the employee, who was a really good employee, got rave reviews from clients and met all of her metrics, was just really having a hard time, and because the manager was so focused on meeting metrics, she didn't have the opportunity to really pause and really take a deep dive to wonder what was going on with this employee. And so her initial reaction or remedy was this employee needs to be written up, this employee needs to be terminated. And through coaching, talked to the call center manager, and I said, "Well, give me an opportunity. Let me talk to the employee."
And so the employee came into the office and so we're having a conversation and I said, "Tell me what's going on." And immediately the employee goes to the manager, "It's the manager," Blaming the manager. And so I told her, I said, "I hear you. I hear you. I hear what you're saying, but I think that there's something else that's going on." And she looked at me like I had horns growing out of my forehead. And so she said, "Well, I don't know what you're talking about." And I said, "I don't think you realize this, but this month is the one year anniversary of your father's death." And immediately she burst into tears. And she didn't realize that her grief or her way of dealing with grief in that moment was represented as being insubordinate or not meeting her performance metrics.
And so I used that opportunity to also coach the hiring manager to be able to dig a little deeper but also see it from the other person's perspective. And so when I think about empathy, it makes me think of that story, and there's many others, but I immediately go to that. And so in keeping with the topic of empathy, in your words, Nicole, what is empathy and also how different is it from sympathy, which people get confused very often?
Nicole: Well, first of all, I love that story. I think that's such an incredible demonstration, even on your part, of empathy and really taking the time to understand someone's experience and how someone's feeling. And I think you're absolutely correct. I think empathy and sympathy are often tossed around like they're interchangeable, but they hold really distinct meanings and they hold very distinct impacts on our relationships. So let's start with sympathy. When you hear somebody is having a tough day, your first reaction might be to feel sorry for them, right? That's sympathy. It's like looking at someone's situation from the outside, standing in our own and acknowledging their pain. And with sympathy, we might even say things like, "Gosh, that sounds really hard, but at least you have this," Or, "It's not that bad." Or we might even jump into giving advice without being asked. I think that's often coming from a good place, but it's still more about us and our reactions to their situation.
And sympathy, I think often tends to pop up more in those not so close relationships because it doesn't really require us to fully dive into the depths of what someone else is feeling. Now, empathy is entirely different. It's about connecting with the thoughts and the feelings you're noticing in the other person, but not necessarily the circumstances. So you may not be able to connect with the events or the context that triggered that thought or feeling. Those things can be really personal. I think it was incredibly astute to recognize that she was probably going through something that had to do with her father's death. But even if we can't necessarily relate to those events or that context, we can think of a time in which we experienced a similar thought or feeling. So for example, someone might be feeling angry because they were passed over for a promotion. And maybe you've never applied for a promotion, but you can think back to a time that you experienced thoughts or feelings of anger because someone else made a decision that you disagreed with that directly impacted you.
So you can see how that requires a greater level of self-awareness and personal vulnerability. It's not just about a recognition of their emotions, it's about having the courage to actually feel with them. And when we empathize, we're trying to connect with the thought or the feeling, not the situation. We're trying to learn what this person needs from us. And we can't assume that just because it helps us, for example, to take a walk when we feel angry, that that's the same way they want to be supported. So it's a much more intimate connection that really maintains the focus and attention on supporting the other person in the ways that they need to be supported. And that might look like a response, like, "I hear you saying that you're angry. What can I do to support you in this moment?" Because when we're empathetic, we're in a much better position to offer genuine comfort and support. And because approaching another person with empathy communicates to that person that they're seen and they're heard and their value.
And I think it's also important to remember that empathy requires a bit more emotional effort and understanding, and maybe even self-awareness. It really requires making that emotional leap to connect with someone on a deeper level. But it's a powerful tool, especially in the workplace, but in all of our relationships to create more meaningful connections. And showing empathy in that way can really transform our interactions in a profound way that sympathy just can't.
Monique Akanbi: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. You mentioned personal vulnerability, and for some reason, that just stood out to me because when you hear the word vulnerable, it's often associated with being weak or just being exposed, and I believe that empathy requires a level of vulnerability to be able to connect and really have that emotional awareness to really try to actively see it from the other person's perspective or understand what they are feeling. Not necessarily meaning that you agree with what they're feeling or how they feel, but it's understanding more so than agreeing. And how important is it or to demonstrate vulnerability when showing empathy?
Nicole: I think they're two sides of the same coin. I think when you demonstrate empathy, you're recognizing the human in somebody else. And in order to do that, you have to acknowledge that you have been in those positions before. And there is a moment of saying, you know what? I have felt fear before. I have felt shame before. I have felt disappointment before. I've been excited before. All of the emotions that create the human experience, we've all felt them. And I think that when you think about workplaces that just feel more welcoming or more like a community, that comes down to empathy, that comes down to the ability to be vulnerable with the people that you are aiming to achieve this common goal with. And when you're coming from all different backgrounds and walks of life, empathy is the thing that can bring us together, but it requires vulnerability, it requires us to recognize and value our colleagues' lived experiences and perspectives, but it also requires us to be self-aware enough to understand that we can relate to those things in a similar way, even if the context is slightly different.
Because at the end of the day, when we come to work, we don't magically become emotionless robots. When we work or log in from home, we bring our whole selves, we bring the good days, we bring the bad days, we bring everything in between, and when we practice empathy, there is a level of vulnerability that acknowledges that human aspect of our work lives. It's saying, "I see you, I hear you. What you're experiencing matters to me and I'm trying to understand, and maybe even I do understand because I've been there before."
Monique Akanbi: Wow, that's really good. Thank you for sharing that. And I completely agree. Why do you think empathy is important in the workplace? You mentioned we bring our whole selves to work, right? So the notion of, work Monique is work Monique and home Monique is home Monique, and there's a separation between the two, but that is not true, right? We bring our whole selves, whether it is mom, daughter, sister, spouse, you name it, caretaker, we bring our whole selves to work. So why do you think empathy is important in the workplace?
Nicole: I think empathy is crucial for teamwork and innovation. And if workplaces really want to create high functioning teams where you're able to achieve these shared goals, you have to practice empathy, you have to understand the perspective of your colleagues, and not just even of your colleagues, but when you think about how we serve clients or consumers or communities, depending on the kind of organization you are, having empathy is crucial to meet the needs of those you serve. And so being able to put yourself in someone else's situation better allows us to understand how we can tailor our messaging, how we can create systems that resonate with others. All of this is crucial for innovation. But I think in addition to that, when we think about wellbeing, there's been a lot of articles and research lately that have been published about how people are feeling burnt out and they are working at a pace that isn't sustainable.
And I think when we enter the workplace with empathy, we can recognize where there's gaps in those experiences and we're better equipped to solve them, and that is a much more sustainable approach to building a team and making sure that we are setting people up for success.
Monique Akanbi: Wow, empathy is crucial to innovation. I never thought of it that way, but I completely agree. And especially if I'm able to bring my whole self to work and I feel included, how much more productive will I be, right? How much more will I be willing or engaged or willing to contribute because I feel included? Which goes to, if I'm a leader, I'm a people manager and I am listening to Monique and Nicole, and I am saying, amen, I hear it. I completely agree. Empathy is important, but the work still has to get done. I still need to hold my team members, my peers, whomever, accountable. How can I lead with empathy but also instill accountability?
Nicole: I think that leading with empathy and instilling accountability seems at the surface like it's a challenge, but actually it's doable and it's actually, I think, essential for today's leaders. So I think what's the most important for leaders to keep in mind is that empathy needs to start with modeling at the top, right? As leaders, we need to show up every day demonstrating that we genuinely care about the well-being of our team because this creates a foundation for psychological safety, and we can't have open communication and innovation without that. And when people feel safe, they're more likely to speak up, they're more likely to share ideas, they're more likely themselves to listen with an open mind. But I also want to add that I think empathy isn't just about caring, it's also about curiosity and humility. It's really acknowledging that we don't have all the answers and that our own experiences are not universal.
And I think sometimes when we're working with leaders, there's this expectation that they are supposed to know everything, they're supposed to have all the answers, but when we lead or practice empathy, we begin to realize we don't have all the answers. We can't have all the answers. Everyone walks through the world differently. They're influenced by their own identities, their own lived experiences. So at Ellequate, for example, when we help employers better understand employee experience, we want to understand where are their similarities and experiences and where are their differences. And so we disaggregate all of our data by gender and race and age and sexual orientation and family status and ability because those diverse experiences can help identify gaps in the workplace, and they might bring things to light that we're never even in our purview. We might not even realize that those are challenges. And so I think leaders can take that kind of data-driven approach to see where they might be missing the mark and how they can better support everyone on their team.
Now, when it comes to accountability, I think it's a common misconception that empathy means letting things slide, but that's really not it at all. We can't often change how people think, and we can't often change how people feel, but we can and we should set clear expectations for behavior. So really when we're thinking about leading with empathy, it's about establishing norms for how we communicate, how we interact, and being upfront about the consequences for not respecting those norms. And that way everyone knows what's expected, and we create an environment that's not only empathetic, but it's also safe and productive for everyone. And so I think leading with empathy and instilling accountability, again, similarly, are two sides of that same coin, you can build a culture where people feel valued and heard, and you can also maintain a high standard of professionalism and respect. So when it's done right, I think it's a formula for a really positive, high performing workplace.
Monique Akanbi: Thank you so much for sharing that. And I completely agree. And you mentioned being curious. And so that really just resonated with me because if we lead with empathy, there is a natural curiosity that comes with leading with empathy because we are really trying to understand the other person's perspective. Research has shown that there is an intersection between empathy, inclusion, equity, diversity, and also mental health in the workplace or mental health awareness. I wonder, what are your thoughts around, can I lead with empathy and not address diversity, equity, inclusion and mental health, or is that a requirement or they all work together?
Nicole: I think absolutely they all work together. I think there's a profound connection between empathy, DEI and mental health awareness and mental health support. And I think when we start to think about DEI, there's a lot of conversation around DEI and what that means, but at the end of the day, diversity, equity and inclusion are outcomes, and they're only outcomes of an environment that has practiced empathy at all levels of leadership and throughout the organization because again, we can't have a safe organization where everyone can show up and be themselves and everyone can show up and do their best work if we don't practice empathy. And so I think it's impossible to actually build genuine outcomes or meaningful outcomes when it comes to diversity, equity, or inclusion without it. At the end of the day, we all walk different paths, we all face unique challenges, we all carry our own burdens, and when we recognize value and leverage diverse experiences, it allows us to create a much more informed, innovative, cohesive team environment.
It's not just about having a variety of voices in the room, it's about making sure that those voices feel heard, that they feel respected, that they feel valued. And I think when it comes to mental health, this becomes even more critical because when we're cultivating environments that embrace empathy, we're also creating a sense of belonging, and there've been a lot of studies that have shown that belonging is foundational to mental health and overall well-being. And so when we have evidence that our work environment provides us with unconditional belonging, that it's predictable and trustworthy, we are more inclined to feel like we can take personal risks, we can be more vulnerable, we can allow our authentic selves to show up, and that can certainly include the vulnerability of openly sharing mental health experiences. And by embracing that openness and support, we can reduce the stigma surrounding mental health. And I think it's important to acknowledge that that stigma continues to exist, not only in many workplaces, but I think beyond.
So when we're practicing empathy, we're creating safe spaces for people to share their experiences without fear or judgment or repercussion, and we're taking a really significant step forward in mental health awareness. And I also think that those strong relationships that are a result of empathy, the sense of community, the supportive atmosphere, those are all proven boosters of mental well-being for everybody on your team. They're sort of the antidote to stress and anxiety and burnout. And the one thing I would add to that is that we've worked with nearly 60 employers from diverse sectors, and what we've seen over the past few years is an increasing trend where more employees are reporting that they lack access to basic needs, including mental health services. And I think this is a critical area where leaders can step in with compassion and empathy, the kind that not just understands, but acts. There's a few different kinds of empathy, but compassionate empathy is where people take action, and I think it's imperative for leaders to really ensure that their workplace systems are actively promoting mental well-being.
So for example, when we think about structures to support mental well-being, and we think about some of the diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives we might be implementing, are we providing flexible work arrangements so employees can manage the demands of their work and personal life more effectively? Do we encourage staff to take time off to recharge? Do we make sure that they're not overworked? Are we offering benefits that relieve the stress of caregiving responsibilities? And maybe the most important is everyone earning a living wage, right? These are all concrete ways we can translate empathy into action to promote mental well-being in the workplace.
Monique Akanbi: Wow, thank you. You mentioned compassionate empathy and that being one of the types of empathy. What are the other types of empathy?
Nicole: Yeah. So there are actually three types of empathy, and each one is important depending on the situation. So the first is that cognitive empathy. So you can think of this as perspective taking. So being able to objectively understand what someone else is thinking or feeling. And this is a really critical skill for effective communication. And this is what helps us tailor our messaging or our approach or our systems in ways that are going to support others, the folks that we're engaging with. And then there's emotional empathy, and this is what we were talking about a little bit before. It's when you can actually feel the emotion someone else is experiencing as if they were your own. So imagine someone tells you about a loss that they've suffered, and you find yourself genuinely feeling sorrow with them. That's emotional empathy in action, and that's really powerful, creating deep emotional bonds.
And last but not least, what we just talked about was compassionate empathy. And this one takes it a bit further. So not only do you understand and feel what another person is going through, but you're also moved to do something about it. It's like seeing someone shivering and not just recognizing that they're cold or feeling bad for them, but taking the time to ask them, "Are you uncomfortable? What can I do to help you feel better?" And so determining the type of empathy that's most effective really depends on the context and what the situation calls for. And oftentimes it might be a combination of both, but all three create sort of this holistic approach to how we connect to those around us. And I actually have a really powerful example to share that demonstrates all three types of empathy and action.
Monique Akanbi: Please do. Yes.
Nicole: So one of our clients, a director of HR at a manufacturing company, recently attended a workshop that I facilitated on pay equity, and at that workshop we were discussing how occupational segregation and market rates can sometimes unintentionally perpetuate bias, particularly against women and people of color in low paying jobs. And so she left that event and this idea just kept resonating with her. She kept thinking about it so much so that when she went back to her company, she started to do a pay equity audit. And what she discovered was eye-opening. A lot of the lowest paid positions were filled by women of color, even though these wages were considered competitive by market standards. And so driven by empathy and sort of this genuine curiosity to understand to her employee's experiences, she had conversations with everyone affected in those jobs. And one story that stood out was a single mother who was hesitant to accept a pay raise because she was afraid of losing her government assistance. So this is a really stark example of what we call the cliff effect.
And so she really was driven to make... She could understand from this woman's perspective the fear and the frustration and the challenges that she was facing, and so she was really moved to make a meaningful change. And so she reached out to her Ellequate coach to better understand and address the cliff effect, and her research led her to propose a new minimum living wage in the company, which is around $24 an hour for the region. And she took that to the company CEO because she wanted to ensure that no employee would ever need to rely on public assistance again, and the CEO was shocked by the reality that someone would turn on a pay increase for those reasons, but he approved the change without hesitation, which I think also demonstrates sort of an investment and a trust in the leadership team to make those decisions. And so the impact was profound. Employees that were impacted, expressed feeling valued and seen for the first time.
And I actually had an opportunity to sit down with some of the people affected, and one woman shared with me how this change allowed her to save money for the first time, and she could shop without worry and she could take her daughter to events that she wasn't able to before. And she's even now pursuing professional development opportunities with a newfound motivation. She said, "I feel powerful," And she felt appreciated and motivated to advance within the company. So I think when we lead with empathy, it's a testament to this idea that when leaders really listen, when they truly listen and they respond to the needs of their employees, they can foster a much more inclusive, motivated, and dedicated workforce, which is good for everyone.
Monique Akanbi: Wow. Sorry, I needed a moment for that one because I just think about the impact that that had on that employee, and not just the employee, but the employee's family if you think about that, and even helping her shift her mindset, but what I thought about was that we don't have to vocalize that we are leading with empathy. What became curiosity and a pay equity study was really driven and led by empathy.
Nicole: That's right.
Monique Akanbi: That just really resonated with me because oftentimes as I'm interacting with other HR professionals or leaders, there's always that question or there's that misconception that there needs to be an announcement that we are an empathetic organization or that we lead with empathy, and if our actions and that curiosity shows up, empathy is there.
Nicole: That's right.
Monique Akanbi: And so that is the evidence of leading with empathy. So thank you so much for sharing that. If I think about where we are today in our society and empathy and understanding others' perspectives, oftentimes there is more discord than healthy dialogues. And SHRM recently launched a civility at Work campaign to promote respectful dialogue and foster a culture of inclusivity and productivity by asking leaders to join us at SHRM and starting 1 million civil conversations in the workplace. And if we think about civility at work or civility in the workplace, what role, if any, does empathy play in civility at work?
Nicole: Well, first let me just say I love this idea, and I would love to be a fly on the wall for all of those conversations, but I think you're right. I think we're in this culture where we may be feeling highly polarized and may be feeling fear with sort of the upcoming election and maybe the outcomes of those things. I think there's a lot of emotion. And as much as we like to think of ourselves as logical decision makers, we tend to be emotional decision makers as people. And I think when we lean into that, when we understand that, I think we can recognize that empathy plays a really foundational role in fostering civility at work because I think to your point earlier, it's important to point out that empathy is not about agreement. It's about understanding. It's about the ability to see why someone might feel or act a certain way, even if it's different from our own perspective or even if we disagree with it.
And I think this understanding is what can transform conversations. So instead of engaging in debates where we're just waiting for our turn to speak, empathy allows us to actually listen, to understand where the other person is coming from, to ask questions, to dive a little bit deeper. It's about recognizing the humanity in each other and finding those threads of shared experiences or dreams or joys or pains or fears. And so when we practice empathy, I think the conversations shift. They become more about connection and a little bit less about conflict, and we can start to see beyond our differences and identify what actually unites us. And that doesn't mean that we're always going to agree, but it does mean that we can engage in dialogue that is respectful, that's productive, and ultimately civil, and I think in today's world, that's more important than ever.
Monique Akanbi: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. Nicole, I can sit here and talk to you forever about empathy, and I would presume that between the stories we exchange with each other around this topic, we'll be here forever. But I want to wrap this up with what I like to call in keeping with the theme of Honest HR, honest thoughts. And so in line with our topic around empathy in the workplace and why empathy is important and why it is a critical leadership skill, what are your honest thoughts on empathy, Nicole?
Nicole: Oh gosh, that's a big question. I think when we think about traditional leadership, we often don't think about empathy. But I think the leaders of the future and the leaders who are going to succeed moving forward in uniting an ever-changing workforce, this is going to be the number one skill because ultimately, technology is going to advance, ultimately, jobs are going to be streamlined, but you can't replicate the ability to connect with another human being in an authentic way, and I think at the end of the day, that's what most people are looking for. They're looking for relationships, they're looking for community, and I think when we feel that support, we are more innovative, we're more creative, we're more forgiving. All of those things that we need to take place in the workplace, empathy is at its core, and so I think it does require a mental shift from traditional notions of what we think of when we think of leadership to embracing vulnerability and empathy and relationships.
And I also think we need to acknowledge that sometimes when we struggle with practicing empathy, it also maybe is because of fear. There's a lot of change happening right now, and I think that fear can often hold us back from engaging in a meaningful way, and I think empathy is the solution to that. If we can build relationships with one another and we can understand where one another is coming from, we're going to be in a much better position to move forward in a more positive way, and that requires acknowledging maybe shared fears, but also shared hope, I think.
Monique Akanbi: Beautifully said. Well, with that, we're going to start wrapping up today's episode of Honest HR. Nicole, thank you so much for joining me today to talk about the topic of empathy, sharing more about your organization, Ellequate, but then also sharing some of those stories and ways that our listeners can lead and demonstrate empathy in not only just workplace interactions, but all interactions. As we mentioned at the top of the episode, this episode is approved to provide 0.75 SHRM PDC toward SHRM-CP, and SHRM-SCP recertification. After you've listened, you're eligible to enter this activity ID in your SHRM certification portal, two five, F as in Frank, Q as in queen, Z as in Zebra, P as in Paul, H as in happy. One more time, that activity ID is two five F-Q-Z-P-H.
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