Equip yourself with the tools to handle microaggressions in the workplace whether you were the recipient, witness, or perpetrator. Hosts Monique Akanbi and Amber Clayton sat down with Eden-Reneé Hayes, CEO and Owner, Pluralism Solutions, at SHRM INCLUSION 2024 to dive into what microaggressions are, why it’s so important to combat them, and what HR professionals can do to minimize them.
Equip yourself with the tools to handle microaggressions in the workplace whether you were the recipient, witness, or perpetrator. Hosts Monique Akanbi and Amber Clayton sat down with Eden-Reneé Hayes, CEO and Owner, Pluralism Solutions, at SHRM INCLUSION 2024 to dive into what microaggressions are, why it’s so important to combat them, and what HR professionals can do to minimize them.
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Monique Akanbi:
Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for informed and aspiring HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities.
Amber Clayton:
Every week we chat with industry experts to bring you insights, trends, and actionable advice through relatable stories from the real world of HR.
Wendy Fong:
Honest HR is a SHRM podcast. And by joining us, you're helping to build a more engaged workforce and drive organizational success. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Monique Akanbi:
And I'm Monique Akanbi.
Group:
Now, let's get honest.
Monique Akanbi:
Welcome to Honest HR. I'm Monique Akanbi, Membership Initiatives Director with SHRM, and I'm here with my co-host...
Amber Clayton:
Amber Clayton. I'm the Senior Director of Knowledge Center Operations at SHRM.
Monique Akanbi:
And we are recording at SHRM's Inclusion 2024 Conference. With us, we have Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes, who is going to talk to us more about microaggressions in the workplace. Welcome to Honest HR, Dr. E.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Thanks for having me.
Monique Akanbi:
We are really excited to talk about this topic. Amber and I, in preparation, were just talking about even our own experiences with microaggressions. Or even maybe times that we have said things that would be categorized as a microaggression, not knowing that it was that case, and so we're really excited to really talk about this.
One of SHRM's major initiatives this year has been helping HR professionals and leaders throughout the workplace address and mitigate incivility in the workplace. And microaggressions definitely fall in that category. And so in your opinion, or in your experience, how would you define microaggressions?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
I tend to define microaggressions as death by a thousand paper cuts.
Amber Clayton:
Death?
Monique Akanbi:
Death?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes, because it really is that serious. On the dotted line, it's more like how there are these insults, and these slights. And it's a quick comment, it's a touch of a Black woman's hair. It's all these different things that could potentially happen in the workplace. And I also want to be very clear about the term, microaggressions, because people hear micro and they hear, "Oh, well, it must not matter." Micro does not mean no impact. Micro does not mean no harm. Micro does not mean, "It is still killing me and it's been a week." Micro really just refers to the fact that they're quick, and that's it. Because it's a comment, it's a joke, it's a descriptive word that is insulting.
Monique Akanbi:
Very subtle, right?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes.
Monique Akanbi:
Very subtle. And that was actually my next question around your reference of microaggressions being tiny paper cuts, right? And if you think about it, probably the worst cut I've ever had was a paper cut, right?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Oh, they hurt so badly.
Monique Akanbi:
Of course, yeah. Small, but very impactful, right?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes.
Monique Akanbi:
It made a huge impact. And don't let me put hand sanitizer on my hand or something, right?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes.
Amber Clayton:
Or the wrong lotion? Mm-mm.
Monique Akanbi:
Right. And it burns, right? So it's a small cut, but again, that impact is very big, right? So what are some common microaggressions that people might not recognize that are harmful?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
You'd be surprised about some of these. So let's say, it's a person who's a father in the workplace. "Oh, so your wife's going to that? So are you babysitting the kids tonight?" Parents can't babysit their own children, but sometimes we say that fathers are babysitting their kids.
Yes, yes. No, we never think about moms babysitting their kids. Somebody else is the babysitter, but we don't think of men as being the caretakers too, and as we should. It's a, "Oh, my gosh, I love your hair so much today." And it's the Black woman with straight hair, and not recognizing that my natural, gorgeous curly hair is also just as valuable, and that all of our hairstyles are valuable, but only complimenting it when it goes along with a particular idea of what is beautiful. Oh, gosh, there's so many you can go for.
Amber Clayton:
We were trying to figure out some of the microaggressions, and it's really hard.
Monique Akanbi:
Right, or that we've experienced, right? I can relate to the hair, because I change my hair very often, right?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
As we should.
Monique Akanbi:
[inaudible 00:04:32] I like variety, right?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes, as you should. But you're absolutely right. Just little comments like that. Or, "You speak well." Oh, no, no, it's, "You're articulate."
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah!
Amber Clayton:
Oh.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes, that's what we say. "Oh, you're so articulate." It just bothers me beyond measure. I have a PhD, so there's a certain conversation in the house and whatnot, and people tell me, "Oh, gosh, your children are so articulate."
And I'm just like, "What did you expect?" And I say, "Do you think because they're little Black kids, they can't speak well for themselves?" I'm like, "I don't understand what's going on here." But we get that. Even people would write articles about Obama and call him articulate. What did you expect?
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah. So it's those little things, and we don't realize, and I'm sure I've said things, that would be a microaggression.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
We all have.
Monique Akanbi:
And we don't realize how harmful they are. But those are very common ones that I've heard and that I've been on the receiving end as well.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, I was trying to think of some, and we were talking about what was said about being sensitive. "You're too sensitive."
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah, "Don't be so sensitive."
Amber Clayton:
Yes. "Don't be so sensitive."
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
I call that gaslighting.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes. I try to tell people, also, "Don't gaslight yourself in this," because a lot of times with microaggressions, it happens, it's quick, and we tend to freeze. And you're just like, "Hold on, did that just happen? What am I supposed to say? What am I supposed to do," but it's unfortunately a natural reaction. And it's part of our, I tend to go with the brain, but our medulla goes off, and what do you think? It's fight or flight? It's not just fight or flight. It's freeze or try to... It's called fawn, but I think it's better called [inaudible 00:06:25]. But freeze is a natural reaction to a microaggression. And when that happens, basically the moment passes you by, right? And the moment passes you by and you still are bothered by it.
And in that bothering, you don't want to be bothered, so you have that dissonance of, "I'm hurt by this, and it happened, and I didn't do anything." And so in that dissonance, you may think, "Well, the person didn't mean it. Well, it was just a joke. I'm probably just being too sensitive about this. Well, that person has a good heart," and it really doesn't matter where our hearts are. It doesn't matter where we volunteered, where we've spent our money. It doesn't matter the books that we've read. We're all going to commit a microaggression at some point. So we need to give ourselves grace for the fact that that's going to happen. And we also need to do a good job of educating ourselves so that we don't commit them as often.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, I can imagine and I tend to be self-reflective, and if I said something, I feel like, "Oh, did I offend that person? Should I say something? Should I go back and correct what I said?" And then it's like, "Okay, maybe if I just let it go, it'll go away."
Monique Akanbi:
Right. Yeah.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
But don't gaslight yourself.
Monique Akanbi:
Thank you, because that's good advice. Sometimes, that's really good advice. Yeah.
Amber Clayton:
Yep. Absolutely.
So why do you think it's important for people to be able to identify and understand the microaggressions, especially in the workplace?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
So when we're in the workplace and we have a lot of microaggressions, it weighs on us so much that it's like the brain power that we need to do well is now diminished because we're working on something, we're trying to reach our goals, but we're bothered by something and intruding thoughts are coming in instead of allowing us to focus.
It also interrupts our ability to just connect with each other in the workplace and have just a positive work environment or positive working relationship with someone. So if we don't know what those microaggressions are and we're committing them, then we could be creating workplace that becomes to a toxic level. And hopefully things are caught and treated in a way that's helpful so that we don't get to a toxic level.
And we also have to consider if someone is a one and only, like [inaudible 00:08:54], we call them tokens in the workplace. So you're the only person of color, the only woman, the only person of your age group, something like that. If you are the only one in your entire workplace, then that means all the people that are around you, you're on the receiving end of all the microaggressions of that type.
Monique Akanbi:
Because you're the only one.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Because you're the only one, right? So you need your allies in the workplace to help you to intervene and interrupt whenever these microaggressions happen, and so that you're not constantly being put down, which affects your ability to work because you're thinking about that or it affect your working relationships, which we need in order to be productive within the workplace.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely.
So what role does intent versus impact play when it comes to microaggressions?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
With microaggressions, we need to really be focusing on the impact of the person, because whenever we have an impact, we are hurting somebody. We don't want to be somebody who hurts somebody. Our hearts are generally in the right place. That's why we shouldn't focus on intent. And in focusing on intent, we also have a tendency to think, "Okay, what should I say in response," instead of, "How can I listen to what happened and how it impacted the person?"
So we need to be thinking about the fact that we can all commit a microaggression. I very literally have a PhD in this, and I can commit a microaggression too, right? So it really is on all of us to do a better job and learn more, so that that way we can minimize our own committing microaggressions and be thinking about how we need to focus on what is it that we're doing that's contributing to that toxicity, the difficult things in the workplace that make it difficult for us to just be productive and reach our goals.
Monique Akanbi:
It makes me think of that phrase, and I'm paraphrasing around. It doesn't matter what a person said or did to you, is how you made them feel.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
That's right.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah, and it makes me think about that, right? Because we spend a lot of time defending our intent.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes, we do.
Monique Akanbi:
Rather than, like you said, pausing and really trying to understand the impact that our words or even our actions had on the person versus what we intended it to be.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Exactly. We need to put intent aside. That is the first step.
Amber Clayton:
So if I'm the recipient of a microaggression in the workplace, what actions should I take to address it?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
So my go-to is really just interrupting whatever transpired. It can be a comment. It usually is a comment. It can be an action like somebody trying to touch your hair or doing some weird movement where it's just like, "What's going on here?"
But my back pocket response is, "What made you say that?" It's like, "I'm curious." It's like, "Can you tell me more? What's happening here?" Because with that, just 99 times out of 100, it applies to the situation. And again, we can freeze, and then you need something in your back pocket to be like, "Oh, yeah, hold on. This is what I can do in this situation instead of freezing," so I can interrupt it right now, and we can turn this moment into an educational moment instead of something that leads to more division within our department.
Amber Clayton:
I love asking the question instead of just saying, "I'm offended by what you just said." Asking that question, putting it back on that person, and then it's like, "Wait a minute, now I have to explain what I meant and I don't want to do that." It could be a really awkward situation.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
See? It makes you stop and think. It's like, "Hold on, wait a minute. That's not..." Because a lot of microaggressions are backhanded compliments. "Oh, you're so pretty for a Black girl." So all things like that, so with that, if we can interrupt, then we have a better chance of really helping that person to see that they didn't come across on the way that they wanted to because they probably were trying to be friendly and had no idea that their friendliness was actually offensive.
Amber Clayton:
I could see that. This is a good way to start those civil conversations too.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes.
Amber Clayton:
The civil conversations that we talk about. So should I do something different if it's a coworker versus my boss?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yeah, that one's always sticky because it's partially what's going on in the workplace itself. Do you have a workplace where the boss receives feedback? Well, if you do, then it may not be very different than if I interrupt with my coworker versus my boss. If you have a workplace where it's a very strict hierarchy and the boss is always right type of a difficult situation, then it's hard to go to the boss. At the same time, that back pocket response that I generally use, "What made you say that?" It tends to work in both ways. So even with that more toxic workplace, it might be helpful to use that as your starting place and just coming from a place of curiosity.
Monique Akanbi:
Yes, because then that disarms the person, right?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
That disarms, yes.
Amber Clayton:
I'm all about disarming. And as you're mentioning this, I'm thinking about a former boss that I had many years ago that there is just no way that I could approach that person with a question. I'd probably be kicked right out the door.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, unfortunately.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Unfortunately, that's too common.
Amber Clayton:
Some pretty bad things, so...
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah.
So what if I'm the employee who unintentionally commits microaggression? How should I react if someone points it out to me?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
The first step really is, again, to put your intention aside. And from there, you listen. You need to find some comfort in your discomfort because being called out isn't fun either, and it's not going to be. And it's not meant to be. You've offended someone and they're pointing it out to you. What we should be doing is really taking that as, "Okay, if someone is telling me, then they still want to have a positive relationship. And I have an opportunity here to maintain that positive relationship," so you should. And in doing that, that's your chance to listen, try to figure out, "Okay, well, where was the harm here so that I know what to do and apologize?" You wait for them to say what they need to say. Again, listening, don't try to start thinking, "Okay, hell, what's my best apology here?" No, you use that time to listen.
And then you could say, "Okay, I can see how that was offensive and I am so sorry." Or, "I did not realize that that was offensive. Thank you so much for bringing that to me." Or just, "I'm so sorry. I'm going to do better."
Notice I never said if. I'm so sorry if I offended you," you just completely threw that I'm sorry in the trash.
Amber Clayton:
Right.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes. It's not apologies anymore, but if you committed a microaggression, it's apologizing. Also, remembering to not over-apologize because when you apologize, and then, "It's been a little bit, I've been thinking about it. Thanks so much. I did these other things. I'm sorry. I'm sorry again," you're just putting the emotional labor back on that person again. So it's apologizing, leaving it right there, that was your apology, and then seeking further education.
Monique Akanbi:
So we were talking earlier, and I shared, "I'm not an easily offended person." And I was just sharing where in a previous situation, I had a CFO ask me, "Monique, what ethnicity are you?"
And so for me, "jokingly, I just responded, it depends on what day it is," right? Because I'm not an easily offended person. I grew up in Miami. Melting pot, so I told her, I said, "One day, I may be Cuban. Tomorrow, I may be Haitian and Jamaican. So it wasn't offensive, but it made me think about times where microaggressions were committed and it didn't offend the person who was on the receiving end, but those around felt uncomfortable and they witnessed it. And so for those situations where maybe an employee has heard two other employees talking and heard one employee commit a microaggression, and it was more offensive to the employee that was just kind of listening or observing than the two that were in the conversation. So if I am someone who has observed it and it offended me, how do I address that either to the person who's committed it or the person who was on the receiving end of that microaggression,
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Right, so that's where I would pull people aside just for that one-on-one with that response, "Okay, are you actually Cuban and Haitian," because I can see how someone listening could take that in a way where they feel like their ethnic group, and their culture, and their traditions are being co-opted by somebody else, so I don't think that's the way you want to come across. I figure it was just a joke, but I just want to let you know for the future. It'd be something like that.
But also taking that other person aside that said, "What ethnicity are you," and saying, "Hey, so I know how it turned into a fun joke in that moment, but it just doesn't sit well with me to ask a question like that."
So that's where you can take both parties aside and have that one-on-one, and maybe you take the person who is... [inaudible 00:19:25]. In my field, we call it the target of the oppression, yes, it's just not the best language out there. But the person who was on the receiving end of the microaggression, basically. And maybe that person didn't respond with a joke. Maybe that person froze. Maybe that person responded with, "That was offensive. I can't believe you." Yes, it could have been anything.
But taking that person aside, if they said nothing at all, and you heard it, and you're not even on the receiving end of the demographic that was targeted by the microaggression, you could take that person aside and try to be helpful and say, "I know how I felt when I heard that. How are you feeling about it? I just want to be here for you to talk to if you need to talk further." So we have lots of different avenues we can potentially take. But in that one, I would go for the one-on-ones.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah. Would that be the same for HR professionals? So I practiced HR and I used to tease and say I was the resident therapist because at the point, employees come into your office, and oftentimes it was things that they've heard, right?
"Well, I heard such and such in the break room talking, and they made this statement, and I would consider that to be a microaggression."
As an HR professional, how do you advise HR professionals to address microaggressions?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
So if someone who overheard came to me as an HR professional, I would say, "Do you feel comfortable going to that person and asking them to come to me," because sometimes you do need to get something on record because this may be looked at as, "Oh, it was just this one time."
Monique Akanbi:
Right.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
And, "Just this one time," can turn into, "Okay, we just got 10 within two weeks, and they're all coming from this one person." Right?
Monique Akanbi:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
So that's where I do a lot of consulting. And with that, I advise to basically have a parallel process because a lot of microaggressions really aren't investigatory where we have to go deeper into this process and there's things that are private and can't be told but we're still trying to be transparent and we're trying to go down this particular route. With microaggressions, it's usually more of a process that runs alongside that if that's also necessary and makes it so that we know exactly how we're going to address it when it comes to us.
We know all the different steps, and we can also invite the person to talk about what would be restorative for them in this process, because some people may want you to say absolutely nothing about it, but we want it on record. Some people may want, "You know what? It would be good if we brought a consultant in to provide further their education." And some people want to sit down and have a one-on-one with that person to be able to talk through what transpired. And so those are just a few different ways that we can try to address when it comes to HR specifically.
Amber Clayton:
So from a proactive standpoint, what can HR professionals do to help minimize and even eradicate microaggressions in the workplace?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Gosh, education, education, education. I know. Oh, gosh. I know people are just like, "Another workshop, really?"
Monique Akanbi:
Yes.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
And I'm like, "Yes."
But basically the more we are aware of the different biases, the less we're likely to use them because someone...
Okay, so one microaggression we didn't go over is Merry Christmas.
Amber Clayton:
Oh, okay.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Right?
Merry Christmas is obviously only a microaggression to certain groups. So if everyone's going around saying Merry Christmas, and someone's just like, "No one is paying any attention to my religion and to what's going on with me, and I'm the only one in my office, and I don't celebrate Christmas at all. I would still tell..."
Many people are just like, "Okay, I don't really care everyone saying Merry Christmas to me," even whether they celebrate it or not.
And so with that, it's really just thinking, "Okay, what is happening here this time," but now you know. Like, "Okay, if Merry Christmas is a microaggression, do I know that this person celebrates Christmas or not?"
Now, I know that, I may take a step back and be like, "Hold on, maybe I should just say Happy Holidays until I know, because I could be offending someone," but just that knowledge alone is enough.
And some people are just like, "What's wrong? It's like I'm trying to be nice. It's just Merry Christmas. Don't take away Merry Christmas. I'm just trying to be festive." Yes, it's right and some people are just going to take it that way. But if we're finding out that it's offensive in the workplace, then we need to know that, right? I don't think you need an entire workshop on Merry Christmas. Don't do that. Don't do that. But if we know, we can do better.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. And so would it be... I'm just curious in your opinion, because I've heard different things about Happy Holidays versus Merry Christmas. Some employers will say, "Happy Hanukkah. Happy Kwanzaa, Merry Christmas," all of them.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Oh, Merry Christmas, Hanu-Kwanz-ukkah?
Amber Clayton:
Yes. Thank you. What's your opinion on doing something like that, being more inclusive of all of the holidays, or just going broadly and saying, "Happy Holidays"?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
If it's just interpersonal, I would just say, "Happy Holidays," to someone until I actually knew.
Amber Clayton:
I see.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
If I already knew, then I would just go straight for, "Happy Hanukkah! Merry Christmas! Happy Kwanzaa!" I would go straight for what I know is appropriate for that person's culture and their traditions that they behold. But it's also thinking about in the workplace...
Just thinking back to this one time. So HR put out the calendar that has all of the days where everyone has it off and whatnot. So when they put it out, it also only had Christian holidays on it.
Amber Clayton:
Oh!
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes. It goes out to all the staff, and so I had to march myself up to the HR office to say, "Hey, did you notice this?"
And they're like, "Oh, my goodness! We just printed it off from online. We'll retract that and issue another one."
But that's all it took for me to change it, but that's the thing is that we need to have workplaces where we can celebrate all of it and also have a chance for everybody to know a little bit of something of these different holidays. There's a whole lot of festivals of lights around the holidays. There's the volley, obviously Hanukkiah, the menorahs for Hanukkah, and then, of course, the Christmas tree so why not bring it all in and say, "How can we educate everybody about a little piece of each of these different traditions and just know what's going on?"
Monique Akanbi:
I have a follow-up question to that because it made me think of relationships that we have, right? So what role does having a relationship with the person play as it relates to microaggressions? Because if you and I have a solid... we spent time connecting with each other and building a relationship, I may say something to you that if someone else said it that you have not established a relationship with, you may receive it as a microaggression from the other person versus me. So I'm just curious as to what role relationships play in microaggressions.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
I think you're already getting into answering your question.
Relationships are huge in there because relationships allow somebody to say, "Hey, babe," to each other. "Hey, girl," and whatnot, where someone else said that to me and like we're not close, it'd be like, "Who are you calling girl?"
Monique Akanbi:
Another [inaudible 00:27:38].
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes, don't infantilize me in the workplace. That's not what I need for my role here, right?
Monique Akanbi:
Right.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
But if we have that relationship with others, obviously we need to maintain the certain decorum of rules with getting consent before touching.
Group:
Yes.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
In other things, it can be like the level of harassment. We don't want to go there when we're in the workplace, I don't care what the relationship is between the two people. But if we have a strong and positive relationship with each other, then we know a little bit more about how we can interact, how we can joke with one another. But also how when something is said, you say, "You know, don't say that in front of..." How that's going to come across, right? So that's where we do want to also lean in that relationship to say, "You know that that's just for you and me, right? Okay."
Monique Akanbi:
Right.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes. So then we know not to say that same thing or do that same thing outside of our relationship that we have because we're so close, we can do this. But we also have to be careful of those onlookers as you were bringing up before.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes. So it's a good balance. I hate that it sounds like mental gymnastics, but it really... Yes, just give yourself grace.
Monique Akanbi:
Yes.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
We are going to make mistakes. Just know that you will, and accept that you will, and know that even with those mistakes, we can correct.
Monique Akanbi:
Yes.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
We can.
Amber Clayton:
You mentioned education, education, education.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
Yes, please educate!
Amber Clayton:
I completely agree. And of course, we have resources at SHRM related to this, but for employers who may not be members of SHRM or might not be able to afford someone coming in to speak to their employees, where can they find more resources or information around training on microaggressions?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
I tend to give book recommendations.
Amber Clayton:
Okay.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
So after I give a talk or workshop or anything like that, I found that it's a lot more valuable to give a few books where they can learn more about whatever that topic was. So one book I just read, which is great for just the fiction lovers, it's Jodi Picoult's book, Small Great Things. I was reluctant to read it at first because I'm just like, "I cried all the way through the other sister. I don't want to be crying all the way through a book. That's not where my heart is right now," right?
Amber Clayton:
Yes.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
But a friend of mine convinced me like, "No, no, no, it's not one of those."
I'm like, "Okay, good. I'll read it."
So it's told from the perspective of three different people, a nurse, neo-Nazi, and a lawyer, and something horrible transpires that was very difficult on all parties. But then the nurses that they tried to hold her liable for what happened, it's hard trying not to give too much. But because of the three different perspectives, you can see the extreme from the neo-Nazi and, content warning, there's a whole lot of N-word because it's coming from the neo-Nazi perspective in there. But then you also see the nurse trying to find trust in positive relationship with the lawyer in what she does to try to help the lawyer to see, "It's not just the law, this is my life. And this is what my life looks like."
So it's an excellent... I just... Jodi Picoult, I don't know how she figured it out, but she... Oh, my gosh! She just wrote from each perspective so well. And she's not a lawyer, she's not a black woman, she's not a nurse, she's not a neo-Nazi. But she was able to really bring out all those perspectives, and you see a whole lot of microaggressions through that. But what I say for education, especially since we're all just super busy people, is go wherever you already are.
So you're listening to a podcast now, listen to more of them, all right? Find those podcasts that are done by people who you don't know as much about, like different demographics of people. If you're in a podcast, then go ahead, be in the podcast. Just try to find other diverse voices from multiple demographics.
If you're into quilting, if that's your bag, then quilting's your bag. Try to find out more about the different symbolisms there that are used within quilting. I know that quilting was also used to try to give people a map for the Underground Railroad.
Yes, to be able to find freedom, right? So if you're into quilting, find out more about where quilting came from, how people use quilting. If that's your bag, then go ahead and do it.
I always use my son as a great example because the child is super into mythology. We had to all... We do family costume, 11 years running for Halloween. This year, we were all Greek gods. Because he loves mythology so much, he convinced his sister, and once you got two kids on board, the parents are on board.
Amber Clayton:
I love that.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
But because he's so into mythology, I'm just like, "Okay, well, that's where you are," as a parent trying to think about the inclusive world, and we're trying to raise global citizens, right? We're trying to help them to see outside of their own world. So that's where I brought in mythology from other cultures in African-American folklore. And if you also have a child's into mythology, or you're into mythology, Rick Riordan presents... That's what he did with his name. He was able to... He's the writer of the Percy Jackson series.
And so now he now has a big print, I guess you'd call it, where it's mythology from multiple cultures, so we learn from a lot about these Southeast Asian kids and what transpired in their book. That was really fun. But I get to learn too, so I'm reading a lot of the books alongside him.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, that sounds great.
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
So go where you are. You can just keep educating.
Amber Clayton:
So just on the final note here, do you have any final advice for our listeners, our audience, that you think can help us all in doing our part to combat the incivility in the workplace?
Dr. Eden-Reneé Hayes:
I think that the most important thing is to stop pointing fingers at what someone else isn't doing and start pointing the finger at yourself. We need to do a better job of going internally and self-educating. Again, wherever you are, just go deeper into that and try to find that diverse voice that you don't know as much about. And remember that the person that you actually can change, really, is yourself. So be the change.
Amber Clayton:
I love that.
Monique Akanbi:
Well, thank you so much, Dr. Eden-Reneé, for joining us on Honest HR. That is a wrap, and we'll see you next time on Honest HR.
Speaker 5:
This podcast is approved to provide .5 professional development credits or PDCs towards SHRM CP and SHRM SCP recertification. Enter this PDC activity ID into your SHRM activity portal to claim your credit. 26-TWEXM. The PDC activity ID is, again, 26-TWEXM. Please note this code expires January 1st 2026.