How many interviews is too many? Is a work assignment appropriate for the role you’re filling? Host Amber Clayton sits down with Nicole Belyna, Director of Talent Acquisition & Inclusion at SHRM, to answer these and other HR questions about the recruiting process. Learn ways to make job descriptions and your organization’s digital presence stand out to quality applicants. Plus, get tips for ensuring a positive experience for prospective employees while gathering the insights you need to make the right hiring decision.
How many interviews is too many? Is a work assignment appropriate for the role you’re filling? Host Amber Clayton sits down with Nicole Belyna, Director of Talent Acquisition & Inclusion at SHRM, to answer these and other HR questions about the recruiting process. Learn ways to make job descriptions and your organization’s digital presence stand out to quality applicants. Plus, get tips for ensuring a positive experience for prospective employees while gathering the insights you need to make the right hiring decision.
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Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for informed and aspiring HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities. Every week we chat with industry experts to bring you insights, trends, and actionable advice. through relatable stories from the real world of HR. Honest HR is a SHRM podcast, and by joining us, you're helping to build a more engaged workforce and drive organizational success.
I'm Wendy Fong. I'm Amber Clayton. And I'm Monique Akonbi. Now, let's get honest.
Hello everyone and welcome back. My name is Amber Clayton, your co host of Honest HR. And today we're going to be talking about maximizing the candidate experience in your recruiting results. I have with me here today, Nicole Belyna from SHRM. How are you, Nicole? Hi, Amber. I'm great. How are you? Good.
Thanks for joining us. Well, Nicole, to start us off, can you just tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what you do at SHRM? Yeah, of course. So obviously I have the distinct pleasure of being your colleague and I'm the director of talent here at SHRM. So that means that I drive the talent strategy for the organization from all the way from candidate attraction to hiring, assessing, developing, and, you know, excitingly promoting and moving our people, uh, across the organization.
Great. Well, I know you've got a busy role at SHRM. Um, and I know that many employers. They struggle to find talent within their organizations and they're competing with other employers. And so we're going to be talking a little bit about that today and hopefully giving some, you know, great tips to our audience members about this.
So when potential candidates are looking at an organization's job postings, what are a few things that employers could do to help those job postings stand out to them? Yeah, great question. Um, I mean, you see all kinds of job job postings out there and, and that's, you know, both a good thing and a bad thing.
There's examples of really great ones. There's examples of ones that are not so great. And I think Part of it is, um, you know, matching the job postings with the organization, right? Um, it's sort of the, it can be the first introduction to an organization for a candidate. So, um, you know, even just ensuring that it's on brand, you know, is it, does it show reflect the, the brand, um, as a larger, as a larger organization, um, and then the employer brand itself.
And so, uh, You know, when you start getting into the details of the job posting, I think, um, you know, there's kind of a sweet spot. Job descriptions need to be succinct, um, and compelling and clear. So you want to tell the story, um, you know, or at least give a feel for the organization, um, a quick overview of the role, what the candidate will be doing, you know, can they imagine themselves in the role, right?
Um, And how they'll, how they'll make an impact. And then some of the key details, right? You don't necessarily need to include the other duties as assigned that you might see in a job description. Um, you know, things like that, but enough to be compelling to a candidate to say, you know what, I'm intrigued and I think I can do this job.
And so I'll apply. So is there anything that employers should exclude or include to make sure that the job posting is enticing? Yeah, great question. Um You know, as I said, maybe including a little, um, you know, just a little introduction about the organization, um, is always helpful. Uh, a lot of organizations now are including, uh, an overview of benefits, right?
Um, it's not just about the job itself, but. You know, can you imagine yourself as an employee, you know, um, what are the benefits of the organization is going to offer you is, you know, there may be, um, an organization that really invests in professional development or, you know, internal, internal development, and that could be compelling to someone, uh, do they have open leave, uh, do they have pet insurance, right?
And so there's. And there's those, uh, details that can really be compelling and pull a candidate in and be attractive to the right candidate. Uh, again, I think telling the story of the job and helping the candidate imagine themselves in the role, um, is, is really important. So, um, You know, getting a clear, uh, expectation of, of what they'll be doing and perhaps kind of how they'll do it, I think is, is also really, really important.
Um, things that you can certainly leave off, right? As I mentioned quickly, the other duties as assigned, it will meet some of the, you know, um, Some of those types of things you can certainly leave off and, and address further along in the process. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it, it's funny. I have, I've heard stories of people applying for positions and then including myself, I actually had that where I've applied for a position before it was something on the website and the job posting.
But then when I get into the interview process, it was not exactly what it had been posted. So I think setting those clear expectations is really important. Um, I, I do tell. My candidates, I give them the good, the bad and the ugly. And sometimes I think you almost have to do that. Be transparent in those job descriptions because if they're going to have to work late nights or evenings, you know, make sure that the person knows that before they spend an hour applying for the position.
Um, I think those types of things are, are really important to make sure that you are clear when you're, when you're posting those jobs for, for the candidates. Yeah, you bring up a really good point, Amber, of transparency, and that's something that, you know, we hear loud and clear, right, you have said as a hiring manager, you, uh, you hear it, we hear it on the HR side, candidates absolutely want transparency as much as we can give them, and so, um, whether it's, uh, a clear expectation of the job as, you know, as we've discussed, Um, getting a view into the organization, the benefits as, as I pointed out.
And then also, you know, today, a lot of, many, in many cases, uh, either by law or by choice, organizations are also including salary ranges, right? So, um, you know, I think that the more, the, the bigger the window that we can go to candidates early on, the better. Yeah, and thank you for bringing up this salary range piece of it because I know that there are locations, um, states or cities that actually require employers to put either the minimum, uh, wage for the position, their minimum salary or a range for that position, and I've heard from employers who have said, you know, we really don't want to do that because we're concerned that other people in the organization might know what the range is or that when people apply for the role that they're going to want the maximum of the range.
Okay. How might, and I'm not sure if this is a question that you would answer or not, but how might a candidate, um, or an employer address that if say, for instance, the candidate comes in and says, you know, I desire the, the max of the range. How might an employer or hiring manager address that with the candidate?
Yeah. I mean, selfishly, you know, on the, on the talent acquisition side, in my opinion, sharing the salary range early on, um, Makes things a whole lot easier, right? You have that conversation right off the bat. Um, and, and it is there, it does give you some insight about how candidates talk about their salary expectations.
Um, you know, if somebody's automatically looking for, you know, uh, the high end of the range, it certainly doesn't disqualify them, right. Just to be clear, but, um, you know, how we, how they talk about it, how the the discussion that we have about it can certainly give us some insight. Um, and who knows, you know, that person may be at the top of, of the posted range, right?
And that's okay. But certainly, uh, you know, when the, when the talent acquisition team is having those discussions, um, you know, they can share with the candidate, look, the range is based on your, um, uh, You know, what you bring to the table, uh, you know, your experience, relevant experience, um, in a variety of different factors for the role.
So, um, you know, is it impossible that we would hire somebody, you know, or that an organization would hire somebody at the top of the range? No, not necessarily, but there's a number of factors that go into that. Yeah, absolutely. And now myself, I actually prefer that someone lists the job, you know, range or the minimum, because at least I know, and if it is something that's, you know, much lower than what my expectations are, then I'm not going to spend an hour, an hour and a half filling out their application online and, and submitting my resume if it's not a position that is within the range that I'm looking for.
So I feel like as a, you know, as a potential candidate, I would, I would prefer to have that information up front. Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. So, so how does an organization's digital present affects the presence affect the candidate experience? Great question. So it could be good or bad, right? Um, it really depends on, uh, How cohesive the organization's digital presence is.
Um, but let's focus on the good for a minute, right? Um, if an organization has a really solid and cohesive message that can help people decide if the organization is right for them, it gives them a little glimpse into the organization's story and to their priorities. Oftentimes you can, you know, learn about mission and vision, uh, you know, take a look at potential colleagues.
Things like that. And so, you know, it gives people just more, more information to make a decision. Is this organization right for me? Uh, you know, as if they've applied already, it can help them prepare for their interview, right? It's another kind of form of transparency to some extent, which. I think, um, you know, if they can do their research, they can better prepare for an interview.
It can kind of put the candidate at ease a little bit more and prepare questions maybe, right? Like, here's something I saw online that I want to ask about during my interview. Um, so certainly, um, I would say for the most part, it can be a really positive thing. They can refer to LinkedIn. Glassdoor, Instagram, you know, a variety of social media platforms to, to, to just get a different perspective.
Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like, uh, an organization's digital presence can also be really negative for the organization if there's something out there that, you know, doesn't. Um, appear as though the company has like a good workplace culture, or maybe there's negative comments and negative reviews. So how can HR professionals help to booster their organization's presence to help, you know, draw in those quality candidates?
Yeah. Great question. Uh, I always encourage HR professionals to. You know, build their own digital presence, right? So they can, and that's a combination of things. They can share wins in the organization, right? If they're a top workplace, if, uh, you know, maybe they've, um, acquired a new well known client, um, you know, any sort of wins, right?
Uh, any engagement with the local community, things like that. Um, but then they can also leverage their own expertise, right? Kind of share, um, tell their own story, tell the story as that, you know, from their perspective as an employee of the organization, uh, you know, and let's say an organization doesn't have.
So, you know, or there is some negativity, right, around, um, the digital presence for an organization. Uh, it allows HR professionals to kind of tell a different story, um, to kind of balance it out. And, you know, it comes from, you know, it comes from them. There's a, a sort of personal testimony about it. They can also share jobs, right, um, to selfishly, right, get the, get the word out to fill those positions.
Um, so. Um, you know, it's a way that, uh, HR professionals can build credibility for themselves as well as their organization. Yeah. And that's good to know, um, that I'm actually doing the right thing because I'm not one that posts on LinkedIn or social media often, uh, when it comes to work. But when I do, um, for example, I had recently posted about my anniversary with the organization and I also posted about.
teams and, and being able to, to work with my teams who are remote, who came in in December, and it's awesome. And, you know, just being able to share those things with others, I think helps to, to show what type of a culture we have and, um, just the, the commitment and loyalty of, uh, myself and others within the organization.
So at least I know now that I'm doing a good, positive thing for us. Yeah, a hundred percent. Right. And it's fun. Uh, for sure. It's a different, different type of engagement, right? Different type of employee engagement, as you point out. Um, you know, from a talent acquisition perspective, sometimes people who respond to, you know, I might look at your post and there might be a potential candidate there.
Right? So it's an opportunity as well. Uh, So, so yes, keep doing it. Uh, you know, share all those positive things and happy anniversary, by the way. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I have one every year. So if you want to wish me a happy anniversary for every time. Um, so let's talk about interviews for a moment.
And, um, this is actually a question that I've had before. And that's around the number of interviews that you get. Uh, some candidates report, you know, having as many as five interviews for one position. And the question comes about, like, how many interviews is too many interviews? I know for for me, what we tend to do is we, you know, hire people.
We have, of course, phone screens and we have interview processes and we do job previews, which we're going to talk about here shortly. But, you know, what is what is too many nowadays? Yeah, um, I'm going to give an annoying answer and say it depends. Right. I think. Certainly five interviews is a lot, uh, even for, for most roles within an organization, right?
Uh, unless you're really looking at maybe a, a much more senior executive level interview. Um, but it depends and certainly, uh, you know, an individual contributor, maybe an entry level role, they should not be doing five interviews, right? You, uh, the, the role is simply not that complex where you need to.
And so, but that's something that my team talks about during our recruitment strategy meetings. You know, we'll talk through the process, who will be part of the process, you know, and, and within those steps, what needs to be accomplished during that interview, right? So obviously there's your initial phone screen with, with, um, the talent acquisition team, then, you know, the hiring manager might do, uh, a next discussion, let's say, uh, You know, what do you hope to accomplish from, from that interview?
What do you hope to accomplish from these additional interviews? And so talking through it, we might decide like, Hey, I, we originally thought we needed to do three interviews. Maybe we only need to do two. Maybe we need to do two interviews and we'd like to, you know, as you alluded to, um, do some sort of job preview or a project, and so I think we just, you just have to be thoughtful about.
Utilizing your time, your team's time, and the candidate's time wisely, so we know what the outcome is. And then, once you decide how many interviews you'll conduct for each position, Um, setting that expectation with the candidate front, right? We have sort of picked up this thing of transparency and managing candidates expectations.
And I think that that's an important one to address, right? So if I, you know, as a recruiter decide based on my funds, great. I'd like to advance them forward. It's helpful to let them know, Hey, you know, this is what the interview process will look like. It will, You may take three interviews with the hiring manager, your colleagues, and then there's a disappointment.
Uh, and I think just managing the expectations and letting the candidate know what to expect. Can be incredibly helpful. Um, you know, if you tell a candidate, Hey, this will be three interviews. And then the next thing, you know, the person goes through three interviews and they're like, Hey, we want to have this person come back and talk to so and so or this person.
And so, um, that's when it starts, the candidate experience kind of starts to go downhill, right. And you might lose. Yeah, I mean, I could see that. Of course, you know, when there are a lot of job openings and employers are trying to find people, you know, having them go through a five part process more than likely, you're not even going to be able to get that candidate through all five parts unless, for example, they are currently working or maybe they really want to work for your organization.
So they'll do whatever it takes to actually, you know, work there. Um, but I just couldn't see, for example, uh, An entry level, as you said, going through a five, you know, a five person or five interview process, um, doesn't make, doesn't make much sense for a retail or restaurant entry level role, but maybe for a management position.
It might just depending on the person's level of responsibility and what they're going to be doing for the organization. So absolutely. Completely agree. So I mentioned job previews and job previews is something that I've done in my past experience where I have someone who comes in and they shadow someone who's in the same position.
They get to learn a little bit more about what the role is. They get to ask questions. Um, I find it really helpful for them and for us because they get to see what the job is and decide whether or not it's good for them. And of course, you know, we get to see, you know, them and you know, Are they asking questions?
Do they seem interested? Are they asking questions other than when's the breaks or, you know, how many vacation days do I get? You know, are they really, um, showing interest in the role? And so with that, um, I know that as you mentioned, some employers also ask employees or candidates to do, uh, um, Work assignments as part of the recruitment process.
Now, as far as my job preview and the way I see it, I don't necessarily have them do work assignments because of course, in this particular situation, it's not work they're just observing and they're not doing any kind of paid work at all, but you know, what is. You know, a work assignment, uh, you know, as far as the recruitment process and how reasonable is it for them to do a work assignment?
And should they be compensated in any way? I know the answer, but I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you that. Yeah, great question. And, um, you know, I There certainly are the reasonable assignments. Yes, right. There are positions that it absolutely makes sense to ask someone to do an assignment, um, you know, that, that allows them to demonstrate their capability.
Uh, you know, if somebody writes, you know, if someone's applying for a content position, for example, you know, giving them a writing assignment makes good sense. Uh, you know, and giving each candidate the same, the same writing assignment, um, from a, a consistency standpoint, it makes sense. Uh, now what that writing assignment entails to your point, um, is it is also another story, right?
Where you certainly wouldn't want to ask a candidate to write, uh, you know, 20 pages of content. Um, but it would make sense to, you know, could we ask someone to write, I don't know, 250 words or 500 words, you know, a REAP article, uh, that would allow us to gauge their competency and skill. Right? Um, and so I think, so certainly that's the, that's the important piece of it.
Yeah. I'm just imagining, uh, an employer saying, Hey, can you write a strategy plan for us? Um, Yeah. Yeah. You know, obviously you're not going to want to have them, uh, do a whole strategy plan because again, that's working for the company. And then of course, you'll have to compensate them for that. But as you said, if you're just asking them to write, you know, an article on a certain topic, and you're not actually using that article, you know, uh, from the person, then of course, you know, that wouldn't be compensated as well.
So you, you do have to. You know, just make sure that you're not asking the candidate to do, you know, any type of work or something that appears to be work, because then otherwise you are going to have to pay them. Yeah, exactly right. I mean, um, and strategy, someone, organizations asking someone to write. A strategy plan for them, uh, is certainly, I mean, that's a heavy lift, right, for sure, and goes beyond.
To me, that's, you know, to your point, moving into almost consulting for the organization. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That free, that free labor, don't do that, employers. Um, so, so how can HR professionals balance their need to gather enough insight, to be into a candidate's qualifications and abilities and to make a sound hiring decision while ensuring a positive experience for that prospective employee.
Yeah, great. And it is a balance. And, you know, I'll go back. I mentioned earlier, um, you know, during a recruitment strategy meeting, understand HR professionals need to understand. What we need to know to identify the right candidates, right? Like, what do we need to know to go out and source the appropriate candidates to identify what the ideal candidate, the best hire will look like, and could we move everybody through the process in the most efficient way?
And so, you know, we, um, We've talked about, like, addressing how many, you know, how many interviews do we really need? Right? Um, so that's an issue. Do we actually have to do, uh, do we need an assignment or not? And is it relevant? And so, sometimes you have to, uh, you know, Sort of advise the, the hiring team, you know, this is unrealistic, right?
This is too time consuming, um, you know, help them. Sometimes you may even help them with their interview questions, right? Uh, there's, I think at one point there Organizations were kind of going through this phase where they were asking these very silly questions that they felt were kind of gleaning into getting a glimpse of the candidates, uh, cultural alignment where right asked, uh, you know, I don't know who their favorite Harry Potter character is or that not at all relevant, you know, I don't, you know, who cares.
Right. And so I think it's important to stick to the job. Stick to, um, you know, really hone in on the, the qualifications as you, as you point out, um, you know, and balancing that transparency, like what's the time, like, and candidate aside, hiring teams are busy, you're running a business, your hiring team is also, uh, You know, serving our members and, you know, doing a number of other things.
And so obviously when you have an open role, you're prioritizing filling this position, but the reality of it, of it all is you don't have 40 hours a week to, to fill this position. And so. About finding that balance, right? How can I get the information that I need, learn about this person, and whether they match the qualifications of the role, you know, will they be a culture fit for the team, and um, you know, and then kind of move on.
Yeah. And I, you know, I think the balance part is really great because I've, I've worked in retail. I've worked in restaurant over the years. I've worked in hospitality. Um, and you know, I remember managers hiring a warm body is what they would say. I'm just hiring a warm body. Well, that never works. So, um, You know, taking too, uh, too little time with a candidate is not going to be, um, very fruitful for you.
Um, taking too much time, of course, can hurt you as well. So it's finding that balance in between for those positions that you're looking for. Yeah. Right. I mean, is it, you know, 30 minute phone screen, you know, can you do a one hour panel interview with your team versus. You know, five separate one hour interviews with, uh, with their colleagues, things like that, right?
Um, and just making, making sure that you're asking meaningful questions that align with identifying the right candidate. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, with the job previews that we do, um, where we have them sit with one of our advisors, you know, the advisors are, are then giving us feedback. feedback as well.
So it's almost like they're an interview, even, even though they're not actually doing a formal interview, but they're helping us to be able to identify people who might be, um, good for the position that we're hiring them for. So it, it, it could be really helpful, um, to do those job previews. If it's something that you haven't thought about before.
So, so let's talk about social media for a minute. We know that social media, there's a lot of influencers out there. They're offering career tips and they've grown in popularity. Do, do you think that these influencers offer sage advice or do they really set those unrealistic expectations, you know, for the candidates?
Yeah, I, I think there's some great social media influencers that give great career advice. You know, I. I follow a number of them myself. Most of them are HR professionals or, you know, um, previously HR professionals who really have a passion for setting candidates up for success as they navigate their, you know, their careers and, and they give them good tips and sometimes they give them very, uh, very realistic advice.
Right. Um, You know, and then there's other, there's other influencers who tell people like, you know, you deserve, uh, to make X amount of money in this entry level job. Well, you know, that's not setting up a candidate for success, right? Um, it's not realistic advice, um, and in fact, it could be, it could be detrimental.
And so I think like anything else you see on the internet, right? You have to, uh, cut away. Gage, like, is this person giving me good advice? Uh, but there certainly are. Are they all bad? Absolutely not. As I said, there's some really wonderful, uh, influencers who. Deeply care about helping people navigate their career journey.
And then there's others who I think are just trying to create a splash. Yeah, absolutely. I am. I just saw something on Instagram recently and I, I don't know exactly what it said, but basically it was somebody who has suggested a fight club Friday. And of course it's, it's joking, but you know, obviously you want them doing, Be careful about the, the things that you're actually looking at and, and, you know, taking advice from for sure.
So, so where do, where should HR pros begin when they're evaluating their organization's recruitment process? Um, obviously there, you know, let's say there are audience members are listening to this and saying, you know what, we don't do that, but we'd like to do that. Or maybe we need to take a look at our process or maybe their process just isn't, you know, hasn't been very beneficial for them.
You know, what, what should they, you know, what, what should they do? How do they begin? Yeah, I mean, they really should start by, you know, doing an audit of, uh, of their current recruiting process. I mean, taking, taking a look at key metrics, um, and that's, and that could be anything from, you know, quality of hire, right?
So something that is, um, uh, qualitative, um, candidate experience, uh, feedback from hiring managers, uh, You know, time to, not necessarily time to fill, but, you know, looking at the overall effectiveness and efficiency of the process and identifying, you know, here's what we do really well, you know, we, we get great feedback from hiring managers or, you know, we get great feedback from candidates.
But, you know, the process is a little lengthy or, you know, we eventually get there, but, um, you know, we could speed up the process a little bit. And so I think you kind of have to hone, take a look at a variety of different factors, both from an experience, like an experiential standpoint, and then from a productivity and effectiveness standpoint, and then, um, you know, dig in where you can improve.
Yeah, absolutely. And something that I have done is, you know, when, and not saying this is at Sherm, but in my, my prior years, when I've hired someone and let's say, for instance, they begin to have some job performance issues, I start to think to myself, okay, was there something that I missed during the interview process?
Is there something else that we can do to make it, um, better so that we can ensure that the next person that we bring in, you know, has this particular skill. So. I'm always kind of looking at myself and the things that I do in the process to, you know, understand better, you know, why someone was successful or why somebody was not successful in the role.
For sure. Well, Nicole, to wrap it up, you know, what's the best way for our HR pro audience to propose their recommended changes to leadership? So they've done this evaluation. Now they've got an idea of what they want to do. How do they propose it to their leadership? Yeah, I think they then have to take the recommendations, right, um, and build a data driven business case.
And so, um, you know, It's really delivering a story and, and showing the potential impact on the organization. So as I mentioned, you know, can you tell a story and say, if we do X, we can improve the, the talent acquisition efficiency, we can cut, you know, we can reduce costs, we can really build our employer brand and improve our overall candidate experience.
And so, um, you know, I think that that's the best way to. to go, to go to leadership. That's great. And, and I know I said to wrap it up, but I just have one more question. Is there anything else that you think our audience members should know about the talent acquisition process and, you know, getting good results?
HR professionals, hiring managers, right? Uh, it's, it can be easy to lose sight, um, of, of the goal at times. And I think it's important to remember that. Uh, you know, to remain, to remain curious, right? I, uh, sometimes we've talked about some of these issues, right? Giving unnecessary tasks, interviews, projects that can really bog down the candidate and in the interview process.
And is it even helpful? And so I think, you know, remembering that you're, you're coming, Coming up the process, wanting to learn more about this person, understand them as a professional and their fit for the role is, is really critical. Nicole, thank you so much for all the information that you provided to our audience today.
I know it's going to be really helpful to them. Thank you for being with us. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Amber. Absolutely. That'll do it for this episode of Honest HR. See you next time.
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