Discover best practices for recruiting, developing, and retaining employees through thoughtfully curated learning and development (L&D) programs. Jay Jones, lead of talent & employee experience at SHRM, discusses how an investment in L&D can help organizations bridge key skills gaps, grow high-performing employees, and keep their workforce on the leading edge. Jones also shares how HR pros can ensure these programs are implemented inclusively and cost-effectively, even with limited resources. This podcast is approved for .5 PDCs toward SHRM-CP and SHRM-SCP recertification. Listen to the complete episode to get your activity ID at the end. ID expires April 1, 2026 Honest HR is the go-to podcast for aspiring and informed HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities. Hosted by Amber Clayton, Monique Akanbi, and Wendy Fong, this podcast brings you insights, trends, and actionable advice through relatable stories from the REAL world of HR. Along with Honest HR, the HR Daily newsletter delivers daily insights, trends, and expert advice, empowering HR professionals to build a productive, engaged workforce and drive organizational success. Subscribe to HR Daily to get the latest episodes, expert insights, and additional resources delivered straight to your inbox: https://shrm.co/voegyz --- Explore SHRM’s all-new flagships. Content curated by experts. Created for you weekly. Each content journey features engaging podcasts, video, articles, and groundbreaking newsletters tailored to meet your unique needs in your organization and career. Learn More: https://shrm.co/coy63r
Discover best practices for recruiting, developing, and retaining employees through thoughtfully curated learning and development (L&D) programs. Jay Jones, lead of talent & employee experience at SHRM, discusses how an investment in L&D can help organizations bridge key skills gaps, grow high-performing employees, and keep their workforce on the leading edge. Jones also shares how HR pros can ensure these programs are implemented inclusively and cost-effectively, even with limited resources.
This podcast is approved for .5 PDCs toward SHRM-CP and SHRM-SCP recertification. Listen to the complete episode to get your activity ID at the end. ID expires April 1, 2026
Honest HR is the go-to podcast for aspiring and informed HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities. Hosted by Amber Clayton, Monique Akanbi, and Wendy Fong, this podcast brings you insights, trends, and actionable advice through relatable stories from the REAL world of HR. Along with Honest HR, the HR Daily newsletter delivers daily insights, trends, and expert advice, empowering HR professionals to build a productive, engaged workforce and drive organizational success.
Subscribe to HR Daily to get the latest episodes, expert insights, and additional resources delivered straight to your inbox: https://shrm.co/voegyz
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Explore SHRM’s all-new flagships. Content curated by experts. Created for you weekly. Each content journey features engaging podcasts, video, articles, and groundbreaking newsletters tailored to meet your unique needs in your organization and career. Learn More: https://shrm.co/coy63r
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Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for informed and aspiring HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities. Every week we chat with industry experts to bring you insights, trends, and actionable advice. through relatable stories from the real world of HR. Honest HR is a SHRM podcast, and by joining us, you're helping to build a more engaged workforce and drive organizational success.
I'm Wendy Fong. I'm Amber Clayton. And I'm Monique Akanbi. Now, let's get honest.
Amber Clayton: Welcome to Honest HR. I'm Amber Clayton. Today we're exploring how HR can use learning and development as a tool to enhance all aspects of the employee experience, from recruitment, to fostering growth, to retention.
Joining us for this discussion is Jay Jones, Lead of Talent and Employee Experience here at SHRM. Welcome to Honest HR, Jay.
Jay Jones: Thank you.
Amber Clayton: Great. So for our audience, can you start off by just telling us a little bit about yourself and your role here at SHRM?
Jay Jones: Yeah. So as you mentioned I'm a lead here at SHRM and I priority, excuse me, I prioritize on learning development when I'm, One of my passions, excited to talk with you about today, but I also focus on performance management and employee experience.
It's a very fancy way of saying I get to touch all of the things that keep people very happy at SHRM.
Amber Clayton: Great. And how about before SHRM?
Jay Jones:
prior to SHRM actually worked at a variety of different organizations, but, just prior to this, they had the largest platform of auctioneering in the United States, which was very interesting to, to help lead. I, did work primarily with the corporate teams, but it was very, rewarding.
But I'm very happy to be here at SHRM and to focus on my main passion.
Amber Clayton: Great, so I have to ask, auctioneering furniture, clothes, artwork, cars?
Jay Jones: The tout of the CEO was they once sold a submarine. Oh, wow. A variety of different things. It could be something as simple as headphones, all the way up to cats, so those large construction cars.
Construction uses. So a lot of different things that they had on the table. I'm
Amber Clayton: glad you care, clarified cats. I was thinking you're auctioning off the cats. No,
Jay Jones: Not the fun furry ones.
Amber Clayton: Great. According to SHRM's 2024 employee benefits survey, formal training provided or funded by employers to help employees either learn new Skills or to keep them current, reach their highest percentage in, in at least five years.
From 74% in 2020 to 80% in 2024 for the new skills, and from 77% in 2020 to 82% in 2024 for the current skills. So what are all the big reasons that employers should continue to invest in learning and development? And I'm probably gonna call it l and d. That's okay going forward, if that's okay. It's
Jay Jones: okay.
It. Frankly, it just puts you behind the eight ball if you don't it's something that if you say you're looking for high performing individuals, then they're going to value that at a high level. And hopefully they're going to want to value that at a high level within your organization for a very long time.
So having that at the forefront of your recruitment strategies, your retention strategies is paramount. And then being able to articulate that to them as far as how that looks within the organization and how that impacts their career growth. It's just something that all high potential employees, staff, are going to be looking for you to lead them through, throughout their careers.
Amber Clayton: Great. And so what are some of the effective ways to offer L&D in the workplace?
Jay Jones: It matters, it depends on your workplace. I don't think that there's a one box answer to that, if it's an organization similar to SHRM where there's a variety of different departments. Then, it's important to just be able to speak to that with, not just from an organization's perspective, but even divisionally.
Does that look like mentorship programs, where you can partner staff with high level leadership? Does that need to look like peer to peer learning, where, individuals can learn from someone who's been very successful in the company for a long time.
Does that need to be external learning if it's something that's highly specialized? It's really about learning, knowing your workforce and how best to interact with the staff to make sure they're successful.
Amber Clayton: Okay, great. What about some of the other different formats that L&D could take in an organization?
Jay Jones: Yeah, so again, there. really depends on your organization, like you were asking about my previous organization. Ya know, I happen to work with the corporate unit but they obviously had quite a few warehouse employees and how I would approach that for someone who's got a desk in front of them versus someone who's on a Machinery for the most majority of the day is very different.
That, that might entail e-learning. Whether they're, we do have a moment for them to even out on the floor to to stop for a moment and learn some new skills, whether that's customer service or just how to improve interpersonal relationships and agility within the organization.
Or that might look like as I mentioned earlier, it might be peer to peer where someone is spending a specific amount of informal time with someone within the organization that's just been there for a while and doing it at a high level. so it's really about figuring out the best way to interact with your staff and that, that comes through truly asking them and then being able to set a long term plan for whether that's through succession planning or exactly how you'd like to see them to grow within the organization.
Amber Clayton: Yeah, and I can definitely see with being remote or hybrid that employers are doing a lot more of the e learning training or the video conferences. And I can remember, and this was years ago, I'm probably aging myself that I would actually have people come into a conference room and put in a VHS tape for training.
And now training can be done on their smartphones. And. Things have changed so much over the years as far as learning and development. Absolutely. As far as digging into L&D for recruitment, how would you advise HR professionals to talk about and promote L&D as a benefit to prospective employees?
Jay Jones: Yeah. First, the TA team definitely has to understand how that works within the organization and how that pertains to L&D. Who exactly we're recruiting and being able to connect that to not just the start of their careers, but how that impacts their careers long term. So that, that really comes down to understanding your organization.
One, one of the top things that if you talk to someone outside of HR who's trying to interact with us and use us as a high level impact on the organization is that, business acumen. So it really comes down to understanding one, what that looks like within your organization, even down to individual departments and then figuring out what's really valuable to who you're trying to bring in.
And our careers we have to keep up with quite a few different certifications. So being able to talk about in detail how exactly do you do that so that you can be successful? And then also being able to talk about. How that can be customized to individuals because it's, quite frankly, where someone starts in their career might not be where they're in their career within an organization.
So being able to map that out and even providing a variety of paths for them to be able to do that is something that would get majority of high performing individuals excited. So you definitely want your talent acquisition staff to be able to do that at a high level. Okay,
Amber Clayton: so how would you assess a prospective candidate's what they want as far as L&D?
Can you give me an example of how you might determine? What they're interested in or what might be something to get them on board with the company.
Jay Jones: Yeah. I've I like it to be just organic, so asking them first to, to see exactly how they'd like to do that. 'cause I'm a big nerd, so if you just.
Tell me that you got something and I, I'm ready to jump into it. But some individuals might not be at this point in their career where they're earning a degree or they need a new certification. They might want to specialize and focus on specific skill gaps that they've learned about themselves throughout their, their job search and that, their job search journey.
So just being able to inter interact with them. Directly and then having those answers ready to go is paramount and that, that comes down to being in alignment with your leadership team in terms of how you are able and even willing to provide that type of benefit to them as they're coming in.
Amber Clayton: Yeah, I know that when employers are competitive in the market for for good quality employees, they're always trying to find ways and benefits and things that they can do to attract those candidates. Just on the L&D part, how would you how would you share that information with people who haven't even reached out to you, or maybe haven't, seen a job ad?
What would you do? How would you communicate it?
Jay Jones: Yeah social media is the name of the game nowadays Being able to put out there exactly how you support your employees internally, whether that is just straight putting out your platforms and what your offerings are, whether that's so it's tuition reimbursement, certification reimbursement or it's the success, those success stories.
Lots of emplo employers, employees, excuse me, employers will put out their accomplishments that your staff have had, whether that's a new master's degree, a new certification that's a I have a belief that those types of things need to be organic so sharing those success stories is a really easy way to do that.
Amber Clayton: No, absolutely. Sharing them internally and externally. You could actually have something like that on your careers page where you have videos, testimonials from your employees about what they've learned or how they've developed within the organization. Great. When it comes to developing L&D initiatives that foster career growth, what are some considerations that HR professionals should keep in mind as far as setting parameters
Jay Jones: Again, I think it's about being really transparent with your staff.
You want them to be able to fully understand everything that they have access to. And you want to ensure that each employee does have access to that. Because you mentioned hybrid versus return to work formats. That looks entirely different in both of those areas. Just being able to, one, clearly articulate exactly what offerings you're able to provide for them, and then not just offering it, but promoting it.
The success stories we just talked about putting, embedding that into rewards. Are you able to offer incentives? The fifth category is for earning a new degree, earning a certification. It 's about being able to not just set the parameters, but offering as success stories and as an incentive for them to want to engage in those learner development items in the first place, because everyone 's not a nerd like myself who 's just looking for those opportunities.
Being able to engage with them. Show them how it's effective in their roles and then also connect that to how it's effective for the organization is how we can not just set them those parameters, but encourage them to take advantage of them.
Amber Clayton: And I imagine too, as far as expectations, I know some employees feel like, Oh, when I come on board with the organization, I'm going to have this happen in six months.
And then I'm going to grow into this position in nine months. So really setting those clear expectations as to. How the L&D works, if it's a succession planning, what the employer does, career growth or career path. I imagine that you'd want to, make sure that they know clearly how that works.
It's not just about tenure and and the time that you're with the employer.
Jay Jones: Absolutely, because it can't be. And even that's coming down to just showing them the career pathing period. That's not always possible for every organization just because some organizations do approach leadership in different ways and career growth in different ways, but if there is a way to, to set at least a clear line, clear path for them that it's just important For the staff to understand that as they're coming in.
Amber Clayton: Excuse me. And that's something that I do actually with our roles in my department is when someone's interviewing for a position, oftentimes they ask, what's the career growth like? And I explained to them some of the limitations that we have as far as career growth, that it's not just about moving up.
But there's opportunities to move horizontally. And I think a lot of people don't necessarily think about those things. There are thinking about moving ahead, but there's opportunities to be able to gain skills and to actually work in other areas too, in some of the companies. Moving on to using L&D as a way to, for employers to bridge skills gaps and keep their workforce on their leading edge, there was a recent Gardner report that said that 64 percent of the managers they surveyed believe their employees won't be able to keep up with the future skills needed.
So how can HR professionals work with managers to develop the L&D initiatives that can minimize that concern?
Jay Jones: Yeah. I mentioned that business acumen a little earlier. It's truly about engaging with them to see exactly what those items are. Because
you don't want to put out a blanket L&D program because that's where you lose the engagement of your staff and quite frankly, the confidence of your leadership team to be able to utilize you as a resource.
So engaging with them about exactly what those skill gaps are so that we can customize a program to them and then find the necessary resources. And they don't have to be expensive resources, I, in my previous organization I did not have quite the budget that I get to enjoy here at SHRMs but that was okay.
There are a lot of resources, whether there's a local library that can provide access to the same resource, LinkedIn Learning or if it's a, it's about finding specialized resources.
it's just about figuring out exactly what those skill gaps are so that we can provide a tailored approach to that individual team. One of the opportunities, I'll say, that a lot of organizations have is trying to just buy and spit out what the LND just could be for the entire organization.
And that's not going to be valued by your staff, it's not going to be valued by the leadership team and that makes it very difficult to gain their buy in to ultimately promote those things so that you can build your staff from within or create that high performing environment that all employers would like to have.
So it's really about figuring out. What's truly needed by that particular team and figuring out the custom plan that makes sense for them.
Amber Clayton: So they would be doing some type of a training needs assessment. You got it. Essentially.
One of the things that we hear in the Knowledge Center is employers who ask us, what's required training? What do we as an employer have to do? And it's an interesting question because there's no federal law that says you, you must provide XYZ training, but there are varying standards.
state laws when it comes to compliance training like sexual harassment training there may be OSHA safety required training, but oftentimes it's really about the employer and the industry and the positions. And where could someone go to, a manager could go to look to see, what may be required or what they might want to do as far as training.
There's so many different training opportunities, learning and development opportunities out there.
Jay Jones: Yeah, and are you asking for a departmental or is it more of a HR?
Amber Clayton: Not necessarily HR, but as far as management, like where do you start? I know you do the training needs assessment, but is, are there resources or places that a manager could go to see, what types of training might be recommended for their organization?
Yeah. I
Jay Jones: think it again depends on exactly what the organization is like. If it's hr, obviously there's pretty easy spot to, to go to Sure. To figure out what certification they might need. Good plug. Thank you. But but no I guess it depends. Like you said, there are very few federal items that we need.
Obviously, we have quite a few that we take care of here internally, but it's just about understanding your team. We have a variety of different SMEs within the organization and being able to engage in what do you, does your team need long term? Because we just talked about skill gaps just a moment ago.
Artificial intelligence is something that's very new to everybody in the workforce. So it's about having that. One five year plan to see exactly where your organization needs to be then, and then figuring out what internal assessments that you can do to figure out exactly what individuals on your team need in terms of being able to get there at that point.
And then from there, if it's not something you can do internally, then engaging with your HR team to figure out what you can do. What the best path would be whether that's, again, creating something internally for the team so that they're ready when it's time to get there, or do you need to look externally for programs that will set you up for success?
Amber Clayton: And you mentioned artificial intelligence, and I'll just say, we're not going to dive deep into artificial intelligence on this podcast. I think that can be a whole nother episode as well as the new learning management systems, the technology around L&D. So we're going to skip that one for this podcast, but thank you for bringing it up.
Taking career growth one step further, how can HR professionals use L&D to help grow high performing employees into specific leadership roles for strengthening the business long term?
Things like succession planning or leadership development, as you mentioned.
Jay Jones: Gotcha, so within that succession planning, as we talked about skill gaps it's about identifying exactly what those items need to be and then also assessing where your leadership team is right now because from there you can figure out what pathing you need to take, so does it need to be individual development programs where we are specializing it for for a specific role at a specific time?
Do we need to bring in new talent through, via Say a management development program, or can we develop something internally for the management staff that we have right now? So again, I know, I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but it's about organically interacting with your staff to, to figure out exactly where we need to be and by, by when.
. And that will allow you to give you the pathing that you need to figure out exact the method in which we're gonna get there.
Amber Clayton: . And I imagine apprenticeships, internships fellowships, all of those things help in that area.
Jay Jones: And I'm glad you brought that up because that's where you can also engage your manager staff because it's rewarding to to get that either way especially if you're talking about creating that, that high engaged performance, high performance environment.
That's, it's a retention both ways, obviously we've been talking a lot about bringing people into the organization, but some people. People don't want to go up to be the CEO of a company, they just want to see the, yeah, I'm not quite there yet. It's too big of a task for me. I like seeing Johnny make it happen.
Amber Clayton: Yes, he's too good. Yeah, for sure.
Jay Jones: It's rewarding for staff to see someone grow and become their boss one day. So programs like internship programs, even if they're external programs that you're doing on behalf of the organization, You're not necessarily bringing someone in to, to be a part of it long term.
That, that's a phenomenal tool. That's probably underutilized.
Amber Clayton: I was at a conference a few years ago and one of my former interns from many years ago was there and she actually got a position as an HR manager. And I was just so proud. I was so proud. Most of what she did with me was helping with me.
More of the HR administrative side, but it felt good knowing that I was able to help her and that her career, she had career growth in HR. That was pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah.
Jay Jones: That's the fun part.
Amber Clayton: So let's turn to using L&D for retention. What are some of the best ways that HR professionals can leverage L&D opportunities toward this end so that employees know that they're valued and that they want to stay?
Jay Jones: Yeah, so we're rewarding them for one because you know here at SHRM we have incentive programs for retention. People to continue their education. So it's about showing that is truly value within the organization and showing that your strategy are aligned with that. Cause you just talked about succession planning not too long ago.
So clearly showing to your staff that this isn't something that we're doing truly as a retention tool to be frank. This is something that we're doing to invest in, in you, seeing your success and putting you in a position to be successful long term and ultimately helping our organization to be successful.
Showing that to them can be success stories that we talked about then Sam said, I mentioned a moment ago, but it can also be as simple as being put in a spotlight at important meetings. I know that even internally here we make sure that we, at least quarterly, we dedicate time to spotlighting staff who've had phenomenal accomplishments when it comes to learning and development.
whether it's certification, a new degree even if it's just something that they accomplished within their teams. So it's about, Spotlighting that and showing to your organization that this is something that we value, not just to keep you here, but it's something that we are doing to support you here, and whether it's here or somewhere else in the future.
Amber Clayton: Yeah, and just for myself and my department, the advisors, obviously they are the same. Subject matter experts, so they have to have a lot of professional development and training, but we also do projects outside of what we typically do in our department, and for me, that, is helping them to grow.
Something like taking media requests that maybe they never had to do in any of their previous HR positions before, and that's essential. Even those types of skill, they can take and go somewhere else or stay here. So I am always looking at those opportunities for them to be able to expand. Maybe speaking engagements, things like that.
So I think it is really important.
Jay Jones: Stretch roles or stretch opportunities I should say Because those even in I have even found in my own career stretch opportunities that didn't go so well The question Your manager having the confidence in you to do that in and of itself is a learning development retention opportunity Now obviously we want them to go very well and most of mine went just fine But that even that is a phenomenal thing and I'm glad to hear that's happening.
Yeah.
Amber Clayton: We will learn from our failures, right? Yeah So what's your take on an employer using some kind of special L&D? Incentive once they're concerned an employee is looking elsewhere or as a counter to them giving notice You I think often times employers think about money, but, L&D, what do you think about that?
Yeah,
Jay Jones: I'm a proactive kind of guy, it's, I wouldn't say that it's wrong to do, but I think at that point it's too late. We've been talking about strategies for, whether it's internal staff or, talent that you're bringing in at that point, likely they're valuing what the new employer is offering at that point anyway.
Okay. Now that being said I've been talking about engaging with them organically, so if that's something that they're valuing at the new organization, then offering it to them at that point isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's likely deeper than that at that point in terms of what other items and needs that they need.
Need from you and why they started looking elsewhere in the first place. Not wrong to do, but I think there's, the issue is probably deeper than that at that point anyway.
Amber Clayton: Sure, yeah. But what's the harm in asking, right? They can just say no, no harm in
Jay Jones: asking, 'cause if they're valuing, they want to earn their degree for . For some reason, and that's something that they. I would say that is a red flag for yourself just to know that your staff didn't, that particular employee didn't know that was an opportunity here, or if it isn't something that's here, then it's something to evaluate if it's something you can offer in the future, but no, no harm asking for sure, and we definitely should, especially if it's something that, if it's a surprise and this is something one who was in a succession plan or or truly valued within the organization.
It's just, at that point, hopefully they would have known all the opportunities that you would have had for them. And, if they've stated that it's time to go, then I caution, because lots of organizations might have retention Agreements that come along with that and you just you want that to be the one of the huge supplements that keeps them here Not the only thing keeping them there at the moment.
So yeah Do you teach us on there for sure?
Amber Clayton: Yeah, I would definitely caution employers to make sure that if they're offering a benefit that they don't typically offer Be sure that it's job related and not based on any kind of protected class because then what's gonna happen is it's just gonna Demotivate people, people are gonna think there's favoritism, why did this person get you know?
student debt loan repayment and I didn't so yeah employers need to be aware of that as well. So I've heard of situations where an employer says they'll pay for an employee's L&D but only if they commit to staying x number of years or months longer with the company. Can employers actually do this?
Jay Jones: You just hit on it. Fine but it's got to be the same for everybody. Lots of organizations that will implement some type of retention agreement with their staff and, I don't think that's unfair, yes, we're absolutely investing in you and we would like to see you be successful here or, even somewhere else in the future.
Ultimately, I think that that's the approach you have to take if you're truly investing in your staff, but it's, not something that you should be doing for the exact reasons you just mentioned on an individual basis. It needs to be something that you do organization wide or not at all.
Amber Clayton: Yeah, one of the things that, again, we get asked in the Knowledge Center is about, somebody has left and they were supposed to work another two years in order to get their loan repayment or their tuition assistance. And so they say can we take it out of their last check? That's going to depend on the state wage and hour laws and the contracts, if there are any contracts or agreements that were assigned.
But that's something that tends to come up, where someone Says we've overpaid them or now we wanna take it back, or we've given them this and can we re, retract it. So there are definitely some nuances too that come with the, those types of agreements to stay for a period of time.
So what are two to three pieces of advice that you have for HR professionals who are eager to. Start or build upon their employer's L&D approach.
Jay Jones: it's, before you even take a step into that, you have to figure out exactly what the organization needs. And I know we've been talking about this a little bit already, but providing those blankets programs is a really easy way to get disengagement from the program in the first place.
And that's obviously not what we want. So engaging with your leadership team to see where are we going long term? Where is our strategy and how can we tie this L and D strategy with, within that? Cause that's how you get the, quite frankly, the buy in of your leadership team to support any program that you create in the first place.
And then also engaging with your staff to see exactly what they want because it, even if, we want to ensure our leadership team is connected to the daily challenges that a staff member might go through and what they need to learn in order to be successful long term. And we, I know we, we're not talking about AI today, but that's one of the many things in terms of how can we support staff in learning new tools that are going to be changing every 30 days, six months, a year, every day. So I think, Those two are key and then being able to find the connection point to being able to motivate the staff to want to engage in those L&D programs, and then also having the buy in of your leadership team to promote those throughout the organization.
Amber Clayton: And for those employers who do the employee engagement surveys, they could certainly add some kind of a question there around L&D to have an understanding of what is important and what employees want.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Is there anything else that you wanted to share about L&D that we haven't talked about already?
Jay Jones: It's I know we're talking about it as a retention tool today, but it's truly something that To me, if it's going to be valued within the organization, it has to be built into everything that you do.
Because high performing individuals will see through those blanket programs that I've been mentioning in five seconds. Figuring out exactly how learning development is embedded into your organization, how it supports the company, and how it supports the staff long term is the key. The core of it being successful in the first place.
So I would absolutely start there and make sure the heart of yourself and the company is there first because that's the, how it'll be successful longterm.
Amber Clayton: Thank you very much, Jay. And that's going to do it for this week's episode of Honest HR. Thank you again, Jay, for sharing your insights with us.
Honest HR is part of SHRM's HR daily content series. So head to shrm. org. Plus, you can catch Honest HR on SHRM's social media comment, or share this episode and be a part of the conversation. Thanks for joining. We'll catch you next time.
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