Body odor. Bad breath. Toenail clippings. While these examples are all part of being human, they sometimes find their way into the world of work, and bringing with them uncomfortable, disruptive scenarios that encroach on the workplace as a professional environment. While there are no laws or regulations for addressing these kinds of issues, in this episode of Honest HR, host Amber Clayton is joined by SHRM HR Knowledge Advisors Elissa Jessup and Jim Emanuel to provide practical advice for HR professionals and people managers on handling these “icky, sticky and gross” matters with empathy, respect, and effective communication.
Body odor. Bad breath. Toenail clippings. While these examples are all part of being human, they sometimes find their way into the world of work, and bringing with them uncomfortable, disruptive scenarios that encroach on the workplace as a professional environment. While there are no laws or regulations for addressing these kinds of issues, in this episode of Honest HR, host Amber Clayton is joined by SHRM HR Knowledge Advisors Elissa Jessup and Jim Emanuel to provide practical advice for HR professionals and people managers on handling these “icky, sticky and gross” matters with empathy, respect, and effective communication.
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Monique Akanbi:
Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for HR professionals, people managers, and team leads, intent on growing our companies for the better.
Amber Clayton:
We bring you honest forward-thinking conversations and relatable stories from the workplace that challenge the way it's always been done because after all, you have to push back to move forward.
Wendy Fong:
Honest HR is a podcast from SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management, and by listening, you're helping create better workplaces and a better world. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Monique Akanbi:
And I'm Monique Akanbi.
Wendy Fong:
Now, let's get honest.
Monique Akanbi:
Now, let's get honest.
Amber Clayton:
Now, let's get honest. Hello everyone and welcome back. I'm your host, Amber Clayton, senior director of SHRM's Knowledge Center Operations. In our episode, we're going to discuss the technical competency, HR expertise, employee and labor relations. This podcast is approved to provide 0.75 PDCs towards SHRM CP and SHRM SCP recertification, if you listen to the full episode.
While our Honest HR podcast brings you honest, forward-thinking conversations, we also highlight the uncomfortable, ugly, and complicated stories of the workplace. Today's episode is about the latter, the icky, sticky, gross, and annoying behaviors and actions that happen in the workplace and HR's role in dealing with them.
I'm pleased to be joined today by Elissa Jessup and Jim Emanuel, HR Knowledge Advisors with SHRM's Knowledge Center. For our listeners who are not familiar with the Knowledge Center, SHRM has a member benefit called Ask an Advisor Service where members can contact our experienced and knowledgeable HR advisors like Elissa and Jim, and ask any HR related questions.
We receive over 50000 inquiries a year in the Knowledge Center, and this topic is no exception. Welcome to the show, Elissa and Jim.
Elissa Jessup:
Thank you.
Jim Emanuel:
Happy to be here.
Amber Clayton:
Great. Well, before we get started, could you tell the audience a little bit about yourselves, maybe your title, years of service background? And I'll start with Elissa.
Elissa Jessup:
Sure. So I started with SHRM as a knowledge advisor in 2019, so almost I guess four and a half years now.
Amber Clayton:
Seems longer.
Elissa Jessup:
I know, right? I like, hasn't it been longer? I think Covid should double that time.
Amber Clayton:
Agreed.
Elissa Jessup:
So before working at SHRM, I had about 10 years of HR experience in a variety of industries, and I have loved my time with SHRM and I think that I've learned the most in any job out of this job for sure.
Amber Clayton:
I've said the same thing when I came here almost 12 years ago, that you learn more in this role in probably the first 90 days than I did my whole 14-year career prior to that. So yeah, absolutely.
Elissa Jessup:
Totally agree. Yep.
Amber Clayton:
Okay, great. Jim?
Jim Emanuel:
Hi. I have been with SHRM for almost three years already. I've had the opportunity to work with members and learned so much about myself and certainly the challenges faced that continue to be faced in the HR arena. I have been in the HR field for, yikes, 35 years. It just goes by in a flash the years. And I think what's great about what we do is no two days are ever alike and you just feel like you're providing some level of value in the work that we do, which is very fulfilling.
Amber Clayton:
Absolutely.
Jim Emanuel:
Happy to be here.
Amber Clayton:
And I think you said that it feels like it's a long time or forever. Is that what you said? And that HR will do that to us?
Jim Emanuel:
No.
Amber Clayton:
No?
Jim Emanuel:
That just tells you how old I am.
Amber Clayton:
Oh, okay. All right. Well, that's okay. All right. Well, we're happy to have you both here today. So now that our listeners have gotten to know you a bit more, let's go ahead and jump into our topic. So I know we've experienced them and we often hear questions from our members about how to handle these sometimes challenging situations, and there's no law or regulations or guidebook out there for employers that says, okay, this is what happens and this is how you deal with it.
But there are common practices and there is guidance, there are sources like SHRM to help you navigate them and to minimize the risk of things like harassment, discrimination, and retaliation, and even for safety issues as well. So today we're going to share some of those situations that we've heard about in the Knowledge Center and the type of advice and guidance that we've provided to our members on these topics.
And we hope of course, that our listeners, if they are dealing with something similar, that they will find this information beneficial if they haven't dealt with it before, awesome, but you never know. So hopefully that'll help you prepare for the future. So I'm going to start with a topic that we tend to hear about the most often in the Knowledge Center when it comes to these icky, sticky, gross behaviors actions.
And this one is one that many people have challenges dealing with, and that's body odor. So let's talk about body odor for a moment. It's something that can happen to anybody as we get into the summer months, it tends to get hot, people get sweaty. We start to hear more questions about body odors. What kinds of questions have you gotten and what kind of advice have you given to members around how to deal with body odor? It's such a sensitive topic for many. So Jim, would you like to start?
Jim Emanuel:
Yeah, sure. Happy to. I think in my experience, certainly members are uncomfortable in the approach that they may think they need to take of course, and would need to take with a colleague that may have body odor. And I think it's understandable because certainly no one wants to offend a colleague or a co-worker, but at the same time, it does affect the workplace and the environment if in fact this is going on.
And so in my experience, I've always recommended that an employee, if they're comfortable of course, approach their colleague or co-worker and speak to them privately in a private space. And I think the approach in doing that is coming from a place of empathy, of support, it's not accusatory, but simply letting them know that in fact, this is what I'm either hearing or experiencing myself, and that as a result, you wanted to apprise your colleague and co-worker of that to allow them the opportunity to both understand that and be able to respond.
So in my experience, it's really the delivery in how you go about doing that and coming from a place of support and care for that person seems to be received well in most cases by the employee. Sometimes, of course, an employee is not comfortable in doing that optimally. We encourage our members to speak directly to that employee whenever possible, but in those cases when they are not comfortable, certainly bring it to their manager's attention and seek guidance and the appropriate path to take to address that and allow them to support you.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely. Elissa.
Elissa Jessup:
Yeah, I think Jim made some great points. It is very uncomfortable and no one wants to have the conversation. So a lot of times these fun topics come to HR because it's like the catch-all right? HR is known to be the catch-all of like, we don't want to talk about this. You're going to talk about it, right? And that can be the case.
And I think just honesty and starting the conversation with empathy. If it gets to the HR point, HR can focus on the employee's well-being, ensure that they're doing okay, offer support. Sometimes there's things going on that may be a medical reason. And at that point, that's great that HR is involved at that point because there might be FMLA or ADA type of situations going on.
But I think overall, just being genuine in how you approach that and acknowledge, hey, this is an uncomfortable conversation and I'm sorry to have it, but we've heard several complaints or we've heard instances, whatever that looks like.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of the medical, I actually had a situation like this with a woman who worked in our retail, one of our dresses departments when I worked in big box retailer, and we were told that she smelled of alcohol and come to find out it was actually medicine that she was taking that actually smelled like alcohol.
And we learned that through the conversation that we had with her regarding others' concerns about the body odor. We also had somebody there who we talked to, I talked to about taking a bath because she said she doesn't take baths. She actually told me that during the conversation, and literally people would actually spray Lysol behind her, and that's terrible.
But at the same time, it was affecting people's work because they were in the stockroom and if she was in the stockroom with them, it was very overpowering. And so I talked to her and unfortunately things did not get better, and it ended up that we had to eventually let her go. We had a policy in place around hygiene, good hygiene in the workplace, and that was part of our dress code policy.
And it was just a situation that unfortunately never improved. And some people, that's a harsh, unfortunately a harsh reality of one of the situations that we've had to deal with, at least in my experience. And so we get into the odor piece of it, but what about bad breath? I know, right?
Elissa Jessup:
Yeah, that can be tough because I feel like I'm almost to the obsessive point, brushing my teeth. And so if you're in a meeting with someone or maybe you're sitting next to someone in a cubicle type situation, it can be really distracting if they have bad breath. And sometimes it just might be a, I forgot to brush my teeth or I never floss sort of situation. Or it might be a medical thing too, you just don't know.
And so I think it goes back to what Jim was saying is if you feel comfortable approaching that person, hopefully if they're a co-worker, you have some level of friendly rapport with that person. And to me, I would prefer someone to tell me that's like if you have a piece of lettuce in your teeth, I would hate to go home and be like, why didn't no one tell me that?
Amber Clayton:
That annoys me when I am talking to someone and they don't tell me that I have something stuck on my teeth or I have food on my face and I'm like, why didn't they say anything?
Elissa Jessup:
Exactly.
Amber Clayton:
Yes. That definitely annoys me too. So would it be okay to pass the mints?
Elissa Jessup:
I think so. I mean, who doesn't want a mint?
Jim Emanuel:
I like that idea because it's subtle, right? It's not drawing attention, it's part of a meeting or group, and it's a subtle way of addressing that without compromising the person's sense of embarrassment or drawing attention to them in any way.
Amber Clayton:
Unless you're offering it to just them, then it might be ... then it might look that way.
Jim Emanuel:
Yes. Certainly, certainly, but think more holistic, think more globally and don't point anyone out, certainly as a way to embarrass them. But I think that's a nice subtle approach to be able to address that indirectly.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about, and this is one of those gross ones, flatulence. We've had members who have contacted us where they have issues with employees who are unfortunately passing gas in the office, and that has become a distraction for people. So how do you deal with that?
Jim Emanuel:
Well, we share spaces, don't we?
Amber Clayton:
For the most part. I mean, a lot of people are working remote now, so that's probably a good thing. But yeah, we do share spaces for the most part.
Jim Emanuel:
So in those instances when we do share spaces, it's important I think to be conscientious and to think about how our body's behavior might impact others and be conscientious of that and be thoughtful about that and how doing so might elicit giggles initially. But at the same time, it also demonstrates, in my experience, a level of unprofessionalism.
And it's hard to take someone serious when in fact modulating, throughout the workplace. So again, as Elissa has said, maybe it is a health condition that is leading to this. So I think by again, addressing if you're comfortable with the employee that this has been brought to your attention or you've experienced it yourself and allow the employee to respond. And I think that's where openness comes in.
I think sometimes we tend to approach conversations with a preconceived idea, as you mentioned Amber earlier, that you may think that you have the answer. You may have a major paradigm shift in understanding and learning that in fact you were way off. So again, openness in your approaching, but also letting them know that this is bothersome to you.
Amber Clayton:
Absolutely. So what other kinds of situations have you heard about in the Knowledge Center or have experienced yourselves?
Elissa Jessup:
Oh, so many.
Amber Clayton:
So many. Just pick one of them
Elissa Jessup:
Here, I'll pick one. There's one that comes to mind that may not sound like a big deal, but at some point it did become an annoyance. And everyone in the office started to be frustrated when a co-worker would frequently clip their nails at a certain time every single day. So you didn't even have to look at a o'clock to know it was nine o'clock in the morning.
So of course, it's normal to take care of things every now and then, but when it becomes such a routine and it's disruptive, that can be hard. And I think the key thing is not to ignore something like that, and of course, give grace to your co-workers when possible. But if it really is grinding not just to you, but to everyone else or it seems everyone else, then I think it's worth having a conversation to hopefully maintain that friendship.
And even if you're not friends in the office, at least a positive work environment and addressing that. And in this situation, they had no clue they were annoying anyone and they felt terrible. And of course, I mean, no one purposely tries to annoy others.
Amber Clayton:
Well, I wouldn't say no one. I know there are people who do things just to annoy other people.
Elissa Jessup:
Yeah, that's true.
Amber Clayton:
But clipping nails is ... yes.
Elissa Jessup:
Hopefully you don't work with many of those.
Amber Clayton:
That is very true. And I'm thinking that the clipping nails, and just as long as they're not, it's in the trash can, it's not on the floor. It's not on the desk. I mean, that's gross. That's gross. But I'm not going to say that I haven't clipped my nails at least once at work, but definitely not on a daily basis and not for anybody else close by to here.
One of the things that I might consider as an employer is placing some of those things in the bathroom so that people can do those away from the desk area. So whether it's having Q-tips in there or any other items, personal hygiene items that somebody might want to use, maybe putting in the bathroom and that would deter people from actually taking it back or doing things at their desk.
I don't know. Although I wouldn't want to share clippers either. So that's kind of not, unless there's some kind of disinfectant, I don't know. That's an odd one. What about you, Jim? What have you heard?
Jim Emanuel:
Oh, only one.
Amber Clayton:
Only one. We've got time. We've got time for more.
Jim Emanuel:
No, I think one biggie is, I think we've all maybe have experienced is cluttered workspaces or workspaces that employees don't necessarily maintain in what we would consider a professional type of way. So by that I mean, again, employees thinking consciously of how I'm choosing to represent myself because you're doing that indirectly by how you choose to maintain your desk space, your office space.
And if in fact you're projecting an image of messiness of there's leftover food, it's just a mess in general. Then in fact, what are you saying indirectly to other employees? It reminds me of the dress code of many years ago, I had a leader say that how you feel on the inside projects on the outside. So how you choose to present yourself, how you dress, your hygiene and so forth, which we've talked about makes a big difference.
So if you feel good about yourself, generally you see that projected on the outside and one form of that would be a desk space. Also, could lead to safety issues, such things as exposed cords. If you have a heater that's set up in an office, that isn't something that's approved by a facilities department.
So again, just ask for permission if you have questions as far as what you can bring into the workspace to avoid clutter, to avoid unnecessary items on your desk and think professionally as far as how you want to project yourself.
Amber Clayton:
And speaking of the heater, I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, but I won't say where I was, but I walked past a cubicle and it was a really hot area, and I was like, what is this? And there was no one in the office, and I realized that the person left their heater on and it was the weekend. And can you imagine if there were papers around? Fortunately there wasn't.
They had it on the floor. There wasn't really anything around it. So of course it didn't spark a fire, but I can imagine that it would have had they had it on their desk and a paper came ... I don't know, it was close by. Very dangerous. Absolutely. And not only that, with the messy desk, I mean, if you have visitors to your offices, to your workspace, I mean, do you really want those visitors, whoever they might be, to see spaces that are cluttered, disorganized?
I mean, maybe that's a sign of the business, you just don't know. So that's to me, another good reason to keep your areas cleaned and organized. And I've got to say, people who bring a lot of stuff into the office, that's great, to each their own. However, as somebody who has been laid off in the past, it's never a good idea to have tons of stuff that you're going to have to box up and take with you.
So I've always been a minimalist when it comes to the workspaces because you just never know when that day might come that you have to leave or that you decide to bolt. And who wants to be packing up a bunch of toys and pictures and all kinds of stuff that you might have lying around your desk. That's just me.
Elissa Jessup:
Not me. I once was involved in an unfortunate situation. It wasn't myself, but someone else was let go. And we literally had to get one of those trolleys things like you see at a hotel or an airport for all of their stuff.
Amber Clayton:
Oh, wow.
Elissa Jessup:
It was like they were living in their office.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. Oh, I've had that too. Food. Oh my goodness. Food all over the desk and just, yeah, I've definitely had that before. What about break rooms?
Elissa Jessup:
Yes. I think the first thing that comes to my mind is what you put in the microwave. Sensitive smells like I think the classic, everyone has seen memes about fish in a microwave.
Monique Akanbi:
Oh gosh, yeah.
Elissa Jessup:
You're not going to make any friends by doing that, especially if there's people have food sensitivities. Some people are sensitive to smell for various reasons. I mean, it's really hard to deal with and it can be distracting the whole day depending on what you cooked or if you burned popcorn, that's a lasting scent.
Amber Clayton:
Yes, I brought dumplings to work one time, and I can remember that I was cooking them and I didn't think much about it, but then I overheard some people talking in another cubicle about how smelly it was, and they closed the break room door. And I felt so bad about it that I never brought the dumplings again.
Elissa Jessup:
I know. And sometimes you just don't know, right?
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. And sometimes even employers, if you have people who have allergies or sensitivities, as you mentioned, they may have to require people not to bring or to microwave certain foods in the office.
Jim Emanuel:
Another thing I think is shared refrigerators. I know it could be helpful if an employer has a policy or practice that they clean out the refrigerator every Friday so as not to leave perishable items that may fumigate, unfortunately, the shared space. So I think knowing that having this shared space is kind of a privilege in a way to have a place where you can go, you can relax, you can have a change of scenery, and knowing that in fact, it's a shared space with your colleagues.
Again, a raised awareness and conscientiousness of thinking, how might this impact other people? My burning my popcorn, my cooking three-day-old fish in the microwave. And again, this is a break room, right? This is a shared space. So do we want to impact our employees that way, our colleagues that way by doing those kinds of things and also having pride in how you choose to clean up after yourself. Wipe the microwave out after you've completed it or you've used it. Excuse me. Same thing with the refrigerator. If you've spilled something clean up after yourself.
Amber Clayton:
There was a sign that someone had put in a break room, and this was many years ago, and it was something like, your mama doesn't work here. You need to clean up after yourselves.
Jim Emanuel:
Yes, I love that.
Amber Clayton:
And in some businesses, they don't have the luxury of having a cleaning service. So it's really up to the employees of that company to be able to take care of things. And it drives me nuts. Don't leave the dishes in the sink. If you've got a dishwasher, put them in there. If you don't, wipe them down, put it back in there in the cabinets, do your part. This isn't your house.
Can't leave the dishes in the sink and dirty counters and all those things because other people need to use that as well. And speaking of common areas, let's talk bathrooms. I would say, what do you think? Do you think we get the bathroom questions more than the body odor questions? I feel like we get body odor more, but the bathroom might be second. What do you think?
Elissa Jessup:
I think it's a close tie.
Amber Clayton:
It's a close tie.
Elissa Jessup:
Yeah, close tie for me.
Amber Clayton:
Our listeners are probably like, what? What's going on with the bathroom? So yeah, tell us about some of the questions that you've gotten about the bathrooms. We always, in the Knowledge Center, we kind of think when someone comes on board with the organization as an advisor, once they get that bathroom question, it's like they're in now. They've had the bathroom question and now they're a full-fledged knowledge advisor. So what are the bathroom situations that happen and what do we hear about?
Elissa Jessup:
Oh, we hear a lot of gross things. I remember my first one, I think I was in the office at that point. I was pretty new, and I was pretty excited because everyone told me, just wait for a bathroom question. And this one did not disappoint. It had to do with an employee, if I remember correctly, they might've been disgruntled or something to that effect. And anyway, instead of going to the bathroom in a toilet like adults, they went on the floor and then proceeded to wipe it on the stalls.
Amber Clayton:
No, I have heard the wiping on the stalls, but not on the floors.
Elissa Jessup:
I mean, that level of grossness really was a lot for me. And I wasn't even the one dealing with it, just providing some guidance to the effort. But I just remembered being so shocked, and it is still shocking.
Amber Clayton:
It is. It is. How about you, Jim? Do you remember your first one?
Jim Emanuel:
I can't get past the lysis. It's those basic bathroom etiquette rules like flush the toilet when you're done with it if it's not an automatic type of system. Also, again, hygiene is incredibly important. If we didn't learn that during Covid, if we didn't learn that just in maybe having children and the importance of cleanliness, then in fact, this can prevent a lot of illness from occurring.
And it's those simple preventative measures you do when you leave a space. But I think it's just, again, clean up after yourself. You mentioned it earlier, Amber. It's, we're not your parent. And if in fact you discover something like that, that's unfortunate like Elissa's story notify facilities, the janitorial service, certainly your manager so that can be cleaned up right away, and it's not something that other employees have to be exposed to going forward.
So do take action. Just don't sit idly by and expect it to go away on its own. Address it. Address it with the appropriate party so that they might have a chance to clean that up so others don't experience that unfortunate situation themselves.
Amber Clayton:
So Jim, and thank you for that advice. Now, you spoke in general terms as we typically do as advisors, and you didn't say if you had a question that came through, are you telling me in three years you have not had one bathroom question?
Jim Emanuel:
I have had a bathroom question.
Amber Clayton:
I thought so. I'm like, why is he avoiding telling us?
Monique Akanbi:
We need to get you one.
Jim Emanuel:
One in particular that stands out because there's more than one, of course, in the roles that we play had to do with how long the person had been in the bathroom and their door was locked. So this led to a question of most people might think consciously is the person, okay, they might go to a place of, are they safe? Is this something I should be concerned about? Should we call security?
What should we do? So again, it's one of those awkward situations where other individuals need to use the bathroom too, and it's there to share for that purpose. But at the same time, is there a breaking point as far as time goes? Is there a time limit? And if so, when is appropriate to let your supervisor know or someone in a management capacity that in fact this is concerning to you and in fact, maybe it needs to be addressed? So that was an awkward inquiry I received by a member that came from a place of care and concern, but at the same time, how best to address that.
Amber Clayton:
When I received the bathroom questions, and I'll tell you, my first bathroom question was around someone who was in a stall and there was another person in another stall, and they could see shadows on the floor and thought that the person may have been doing something inappropriate in their stall, and so they complained about it.
Of course, investigating that is going to be a challenge, but if it happens more than once, it might need to be addressed. I also got questions around, well, we don't know who did it. How do we find out? One of the guidance that I provided to them was some employers will have a sign-in sheet for the restroom. I know it sounds silly, but some will have a key so that they know who's in the bathroom when, some will have a sign-up sheet, some will have cameras outside in the hallway to see who comes in and out so that they can try to help pinpoint who might be vandalizing the bathroom.
So there's things that employers might be able to do to investigate and identify if there's someone doing it and it's purposeful. And I think some employers are, obviously you can't have cameras in the bathroom, but there's ways that you might be able to narrow it down and figure out who might be doing it so that you could address it with that individual person.
I typically say address it with the group initially, with all of the employees, make sure that they understand the expectations, and then if the behavior still continues, then try to investigate and figure out who it might be so that you can deal with that situation.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah, that's tough.
Jim Emanuel:
Good advice.
Wendy Fong:
I think you shared this a few months ago, maybe Amber, I think you had a question about someone wanting their employees to answer calls from the bathroom.
Amber Clayton:
Oh, goodness, yes. Yes, I do. Yeah, it was an owner of the company, I believe that had someone who was answering the phones and it was only one person, and they didn't want to shut down the phone lines. So they told their HR manager that they wanted the person to still continue to work and take calls while they were taking their bathroom breaks. And I was just blown away by that.
Yeah, that was an interesting one. Is there guidance for something like that? No. But is it a common situation? No, it isn't. But there should be alternatives. People should be able to use the restroom as they need to without having to do work at the same time. And nor would you want an employee to do that.
If they're on the phone with somebody, they're going to hear That's just gross. And we shouldn't be encouraging or requiring somebody to do that. And it might mean that the phones need to be offered a certain time, or maybe there's somebody that needs to come in to relieve the person to give them a break. There are alternatives to doing something like that.
Jim Emanuel:
Yeah, it's also when that person is out due to an absence or an illness, how do you manage that type of situation? So why wouldn't you have coverage for that individual under those circumstances?
Amber Clayton:
Yes, definitely. Another one that I've heard quite a bit about are things like, and this is kind of personal for me, excessive coughing. I've always said that I've had a chronic cough, even though I haven't been diagnosed with it, because I have a tendency to clear my throat and cough. Fortunately, I'm in an office, so hopefully I'm not disrupting anybody.
But we've heard members who have called because they have employees who might be clearing their throat, excessively, sneezing, coughing, maybe not using proper health guidelines like sneezing in your arm. Have you heard those? And if so, what type of guidance have you provided?
Elissa Jessup:
Yeah, I have received questions about that, and I think it comes down to, well, a few things, but is it a one-time situation or is it really constant? So I think back to what I was saying about giving your co-workers grace is don't look for things that annoy you just to annoy, just to be like that, I guess. But if it is excessive and maybe other co-workers are noticing it, maybe then at that point it could be something that, okay, I'm not just being-
Amber Clayton:
Petty about it.
Elissa Jessup:
Yeah. I'm not being petty. There's other people who notice it as well. And I think at that point, you could ask that person if they're okay, and if you have a friendship, if you have a rapport, more often than not, they probably will share it with you. And if not, that's fine. They don't have to, so don't badger them, of course. But I think most of the time people want to explain themselves of, hey, I'm not sick or during Covid or coming back from Covid, hey, I don't have Covid, just so you know.
Amber Clayton:
I feel like that's a natural response right now like, oh, you're on mute. It's like the new phrase.
Elissa Jessup:
Exactly, yes. We need bugs.
Amber Clayton:
Yes.
Elissa Jessup:
Exactly.
Jim Emanuel:
And they may do it so often too, Elissa, to your point, they may not be aware that they're even doing it because it's so much of a day-to-day reaction or just what they do. And it could also be an underlying health condition as well. So again, by approaching it with a level of openness in my experience would be helpful because we don't always know the answer. We think we do.
We think we're so smart and we diagnose people. Well, that's not our role. Our role is to be supportive, to inform and apprise someone that this is what I'm seeing, this is what I'm hearing, this is what I'm experiencing. And allow that person to respond and show support. If they do have an underlying health condition, ah.
It's one of those paradigm shifts we have when we discover that in fact, we were way off base. So it also is respectful because you're bringing that to their attention rather than harboring angst or anger against someone. That's also somewhat of a passive-aggressive behavior. So be constructive, go to the source, allow them a chance to respond and remedy that.
Amber Clayton:
What if they can't remedy, let's just say it is a medical issue and they have a chronic cough and it continues. What types of solutions do you think a member can do to help alleviate the disruptions in the office with the other employees in that particular situation?
Jim Emanuel:
You might be able to find a space in the workspace or office, if you will, that is somewhat removed from other employees. Certainly you don't want to draw attention to that individual or penalize them for this occurring. But at the same time, if it's known and other employees are complaining about it, allow them, as Elissa said, some grace and provide them a space where they can be comfortable and be able to cough, clear their throat if they need to, and not feel embarrassed or judged from other employees.
Elissa Jessup:
I think I would add to that. Those are great points, Jim. And I think sometimes the hard part with some of these questions that we get is maybe they are in a cubicle setting and there is no space, so what do you do then? And there may not be much, unless I'm totally missing something other than, and maybe training is needed too. If it's really bothering someone and they just can't let it go, at some point you might just have to let it go.
Amber Clayton:
What about earplugs? I mean, I know if I am distracted by that, maybe a lot of people use headphones, earphones, earplugs to try to drown out the noise. Other things might be, I know it's really hard in an open air environment in cubicle, but maybe that employee has their own suggestions, like asking them, what do you think that we could do to minimize this disruption? Maybe it's, I don't know, coughing in a towel.
I don't know. But yeah, I mean, certainly if there is a space and somebody would like to move, great. If not, then maybe the earplugs or white noise or sometimes that little white noise machine like you have Elissa and things like that can actually help out. But also too hybrid work now. I mean, many jobs can be done from home. So if it's available, if tele-work's available, maybe that's another option for those employees, whether it's the employee who has the excessive coughing, sneezing, clearing throat, or another employee that may be distracted and unproductive because of it.
So lastly, I'm just going to talk about this one because I can remember when I first started with SHRM, we were getting questions at the time around bed bugs. And it's not like bed bugs have completely gone away. We're probably not hearing about it as much. I think it started in hotels. There were hotels that were having that issue with bed bugs, and then all of a sudden we started hearing people saying, oh, the bed bugs are being brought into the office.
But even not just that, but mice, rats, roaches, lice, all of those things. So how do you deal with that as an employer? If you find out that employees are coming to work and they're bringing in these bugs, or maybe they've got that messy desk and they're leaving food everywhere and it's attracting bugs and mice and rats, how do you deal with that? What advice would you provide to the members?
Elissa Jessup:
Oh, man, that's tough because no one wants to find a rat in their desk.
Amber Clayton:
No.
Elissa Jessup:
At all.
Amber Clayton:
Dead or alive.
Elissa Jessup:
Yeah, neither, please, and thank you. I think it may come down to policies that employers have of not keeping a stash of snacks, or if you have snacks, make sure they're zip locked or having precautions so that if an employee is on vacation or maternity leave and their snacks are just all over the bottom of the floor and then they come back and there's a rat all next to their M&Ms, I mean, that's terrible. It happens.
Amber Clayton:
It does. Actually, years ago, again, that big box retailer I was mentioning, and I'm not going to say the name, we had a training room and we had people that were training and a mouse ran through, and I can remember screaming and jumping on the desk, and we were trying to catch it with the box and we couldn't get it.
And I just stood there, screaming. Now I think I'd be okay with it, unless it was like a big spider. But yeah, no, we definitely had that. And it was people were allowed to eat and bring things into the training room at the time. And so that stopped as a result because we were getting these mice in there. So it was pretty funny at the time, but maybe not funny for people who are really, really scared of them. Definitely.
Elissa Jessup:
I would be jumping on the chair. I'd be the one screaming.
Amber Clayton:
Exactly. Exactly. So you know what? I lied. I said there was one more, but here's another one. Taking shoes off. People who walk around with their shoes off. I'm going to say I have been guilty of it, but not around other people in my office space. I'm not going to lie. I've taken off my shoes. But when you have that issue, and I don't know if you've had that question before, but what would you say?
Elissa Jessup:
I personally haven't had that question. I now work remotely, so I really enjoy not wearing shoes during the day. But I do remember when I had an office at a previous position, it was kind of relaxing. You take off your shoes, but constantly had to remind myself, hey, you're leaving the office.
Put your shoes on. So it might just be a gentle reminder from a manager. It may not be intentional. So I think a first attempt is just to have that conversation of, hey, we've noticed this. We want to maintain a business environment. Please put your shoes back on.
Jim Emanuel:
And they could smell too. I mean, feet don't always smell. They're not always pretty either. Toes can be kind of unattractive sometimes.
Amber Clayton:
That is so true. And then you get into the clipping nails part, which could be clipping toenails too, which I have seen myself in an office. So it does happen. But also-
Jim Emanuel:
And safety.
Amber Clayton:
I was going to say safety. That's the other thing.
Jim Emanuel:
Safety. I mean there's a reason why they're covering your feet, right? Is a level of safety. If you happen to drop something on it from the kitchen, the break room, you stub your toe. There's a reason why we have foot coverings.
Amber Clayton:
Where it's staples and thumb tacks and all those things that we drop on the floor that we could step on, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I feel like we've covered a lot of these icky, sticky, gross situations. And again, we try to make light of them, but it is serious, and it could really affect someone's productivity and be disruptive in the office.
And sometimes HR has to deal with it. And hopefully, like I said, our listeners, if they're dealing with that right now, some of the tips help them. And if not, it will help them in the future. So any last words for our listeners on this particular topic?
Elissa Jessup:
I was going to say brace yourself for the summer, because that's usually when it happens. And we'll be here to help if you do have these problems and questions.
Jim Emanuel:
And come from a good place, information is received well from others, when in fact, you communicate it in a way that is warm, that is a place of caring, right? It's hard to be mad at someone that expresses their concerns for you in a way that looks out for your best interest. So keep that in mind and don't be alarmed. Don't be scared off by doing that. What would you want that person to do if you were in their shoes?
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, and you make a really good point. I mean, oftentimes these situations can be embarrassing for people, and I think coming at it in the way that you mentioned Jim, is the right thing to do as an employer. So great advice. And with that, we have come to the end of our show.
For listeners who are members of SHRM, you can find resources specific to this topic on shrm.org. You can also contact SHRM's Knowledge Center and maybe you'll get Elissa or Jim on one of your calls or chats with them, and they can assist you and provide resources as well. Our advisors are at shrm.org/hrhelp. Thank you, Elissa and Jim for joining me today on this episode.
Elissa Jessup:
Thank you. It was so fun.
Jim Emanuel:
My pleasure.
Amber Clayton:
Great. And for our listeners, this is just a reminder that this podcast is approved to provide 0.75 PDCs towards SHRM CP and SHRM SCP recertification if you listen to the full episode. After listening, you may enter this activity ID 25-92ZAM into your SHRM activity portal. Please note this activity ID will expire in June, 2025. If you haven't already, please subscribe so you'll never miss an episode.
And be sure to rate and review the show where you listen to podcasts. Feel free to reach out to me. You can find me on LinkedIn and X. And if you'd like to learn more about the Honest HR Podcast about myself or the other host, or to get additional information and resources on what was discussed in today's episode, head over to shrm.org/honesthr. And to learn more about other SHRM podcasts, check out shrm.org/podcasts. Thanks again for joining us on Honest HR. Until next time.