Saying goodbye to an employee is never easy. Host Monique Akanbi and Tina Schust Robinson, founder & CEO of Workjoy, discuss helpful tips for HR professionals who need to conduct either tricky terminations or smooth sendoffs once employees give notice. Tune in for insights on how to balance HR’s role of organizational steward with showing empathy for co-workers during these transitional moments. This podcast is approved for .5 PDCs toward SHRM-CP and SHRM-SCP recertification. Listen to the complete episode to get your activity ID at the end. ID expires March 1, 2026 Honest HR is the go-to podcast for aspiring and informed HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities. Hosted by Amber Clayton, Monique Akanbi, and Wendy Fong, this podcast brings you insights, trends, and actionable advice through relatable stories from the REAL world of HR. Along with Honest HR, the HR Daily newsletter delivers daily insights, trends, and expert advice, empowering HR professionals to build a productive, engaged workforce and drive organizational success. Subscribe to HR Daily to get the latest episodes, expert insights, and additional resources delivered straight to your inbox: https://shrm.co/voegyz --- Explore SHRM’s all-new flagships. Content curated by experts. Created for you weekly. Each content journey features engaging podcasts, video, articles, and groundbreaking newsletters tailored to meet your unique needs in your organization and career. Learn More: https://shrm.co/coy63r
Saying goodbye to an employee is never easy. Host Monique Akanbi and Tina Schust Robinson, founder & CEO of Workjoy, discuss helpful tips for HR professionals who need to conduct either tricky terminations or smooth sendoffs once employees give notice. Tune in for insights on how to balance HR’s role of organizational steward with showing empathy for co-workers during these transitional moments.
This podcast is approved for .5 PDCs toward SHRM-CP and SHRM-SCP recertification. Listen to the complete episode to get your activity ID at the end. ID expires March 1, 2026
Honest HR is the go-to podcast for aspiring and informed HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities. Hosted by Amber Clayton, Monique Akanbi, and Wendy Fong, this podcast brings you insights, trends, and actionable advice through relatable stories from the REAL world of HR. Along with Honest HR, the HR Daily newsletter delivers daily insights, trends, and expert advice, empowering HR professionals to build a productive, engaged workforce and drive organizational success.
Subscribe to HR Daily to get the latest episodes, expert insights, and additional resources delivered straight to your inbox: https://shrm.co/voegyz
---
Explore SHRM’s all-new flagships. Content curated by experts. Created for you weekly. Each content journey features engaging podcasts, video, articles, and groundbreaking newsletters tailored to meet your unique needs in your organization and career. Learn More: https://shrm.co/coy63r
Rate/review Honest HR on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for informed and aspiring HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities. Every week we chat with industry experts to bring you insights, trends, and actionable advice. through relatable stories from the real world of HR. Honest HR is a SHRM podcast, and by joining us, you're helping to build a more engaged workforce and drive organizational success.
I'm Wendy Fong. I'm Amber Clayton. And I'm Monique Akonbi. Now, let's get honest.
Monique Akanbi: Hello and welcome to Honest HR. I'm your host, Monique Akanbi. Today, we're exploring the topic of terminations and ways to gracefully say goodbye. Joining us is Tina Robinson, founder and CEO of WorkJoy. Welcome to Honest HR, Tina.
Tina Schust Robinson: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Monique Akanbi: We are so happy to have you. you presented at SHRM's annual conference last year on the topic of the graceful goodbye. By the way, terminations were my least favorite part of practicing HR. But to kick things off, can you tell us a little bit about your background in HR and what inspired you to give that talk of the graceful goodbye at our annual conference?
Tina Schust Robinson: I would be happy to. And thank you again so much for having me on this fabulous podcast. Um, so I came. I came to HR in a roundabout way, and I would imagine many of our listeners would agree with that. I have long had a fascination with the intersection of humans and work. Um, even in my earliest jobs, I was always the one who volunteered for the social committee, if you remember what those were. Um, I wanted to be part of onboarding. I was interested in the human dynamics in the workplace. Went to business school at University of Michigan, graduated, went into change management consulting, did that for a while and then migrated both from the Midwest to Los Angeles where I live today. Um, and migrated into corporate HR.
So over the next nine years, I worked in three different industries in various HR and talent development leadership roles, I migrated again to go over to SuccessFactors owned by the SAP, uh, to dive into the world of HR technology and helping our clients, um, develop business cases to optimize their use of solutions. I came full circle to my favorite parts of HR, which has always been the, the talent. The leadership development, the org development launched my own practice called Workshoy in 2017 and had been very fortunate to be invited to speak at SHRM conferences and I'll be at the Nashville event next month. The topic of the graceful goodbye came about in a few ways. I have had managers engage with me as I was departing in various ways, and I was always fascinated by. when managers did it well and when managers didn't do it well. And I have also coached as an HR professional managers on how to do this well and have still watched managers not do it well. And I thought this is an opportunity for HR professionals, for us to help leaders say goodbye with grace. And The focus of my presentation at SHRM was more voluntary because we were in the throes of the Great Resignation.
We were still saying goodbye to a lot of people that we really wanted to stay, but many of the same aspects can apply to involuntary as well.
Monique Akanbi: I love that you shared your kind of way you got into HR. I think many of us, just as you shared, I always say I didn't choose HR. HR chose me being the oldest of the group. Um, eight Children. Um, my family, my siblings always called me the family, family manager, right? So I'm destined to tell people what to do.
Um, but it makes me think about terminations when I practiced HR prior to joining SHRM in my current role. And It was a topic or an area that I did not take lightly. Um, I recognize the impact, whether it was voluntary or involuntary and typically involuntary, uh, terminations are the ones that are a little more trickier or a little more complicated.
And. I realized the impact, not only that it had on the individual sitting on the other side, but also the indirect impact that it would have on their family. Um, and so when I was working with my managers, I was very, very strict in. Making termination decisions just because I realized the impact to not only from no longer having employment impact, but even the emotional impact that it has on an individual.
So. In your opinion, how can HR professionals prepare themselves to have those emotionally intelligent dialogues with an employee who is either given notice or they're being let go?
Tina Schust Robinson: Thank you for sharing all of that. I'm the oldest of three, and so I completely empathize. I think oldest children are the best because we are, um,
Monique Akanbi: would agree.
Tina Schust Robinson: yeah, um, that's a great question. And I think we can lift out. The phrase emotionally intelligent because so many of us as HR professionals have learned the basics of EQ or have taught or and or have taught EQ and this is the best perfect time to bring those
concepts home and to really, uh, sort of practice what we preach. So if we think about. The four quadrants of emotional intelligence. First and foremost, it's understanding yourself and having self awareness of how am I going to show up in this situation? Do I lean towards more emotional? Am I going to go right into empathy? Am I going to lead with my heart or am I going to go the opposite way?
And I'm going to actually lead with my head and I'm not going to show empathy. Um, I'm going to be very direct, which could be perceived as cold or unfeeling. So knowing our natural tendencies is a really important first step because then we can figure out how to adapt to them. And ideally we're adapting them based on the person sitting across from us. So what do I know about this person? Oh, this is a person who's matter of fact. And if I lean into my go to reaction of going all blubbery,
this is not going to work. It's a little bit, it's sort of HR saying, it's not all about you right now.
Monique Akanbi: hmm.
Tina Schust Robinson: to lean into the other person and do what you need to do to adapt, to flex, to achieve the desired outcome, which is a graceful, respectful parting of ways.
Thanks. So knowing yourself, knowing the other person, and then being able to adapt. Do not expect the person across from you who is about to receive this news or is the one bringing the news to you. Do not expect that person to adapt to you.
Monique Akanbi: How do you, um, or in your opinion, if HR professionals invite the employee's manager into the conversation, does that tend to complicate things?
Tina Schust Robinson: It's a great question. And so it, when I was looking at that question as part of my preparation for today, I was giggling because, um, I was just having a conversation with a client who. Was grappling with this, so
there's a lot of different things that go into it, and I know that's a consulting answer of it depends. I absolutely believe in holding business leaders accountable for
having the tough conversations, and so by not including them, I think we are removing that. Layer of accountability.
I think we're also denying them the opportunity to get better. We're denying them the opportunity to learn how to have the tough conversations to be self aware, to adapt, to do all the things that I just shared.
Um, and I also think that we're disempowering the business leaders by not including them. Now, all of that being said, you want to make sure that your business Leaders are prepared for the conversation and they're
not going to go a little bit kooky,
um, in the meeting. So it's about having the EQ conversation.
It's about prepping them, maybe giving them a script. I, and I'm sure we will get, um, members of our audience disagreeing, but whenever possible, I believe in keeping the accountability for the employee life cycle. On the business manager, you were part of the hiring. You were the one who said, bring this person in. You should be there. If you are now saying that there's not a fit for this person here.
Monique Akanbi: Yeah, I agree with prepping the manager, right? Because ultimately, I, I actually was just speaking, um, at a class at FSU at Florida State University last week, um, and we were talking about the topic around determinations and, um, the role of the perception of HR. And we get a bad rap, right? So we're often thought of as the principal or we're thought of as the people that hire and fire individuals.
And ultimately, we just facilitate that process. And so to your point of the manager really being the one to make that hiring decision and also getting to the point of for whatever reason, as long as it's not, um, Any discrimination, um, to get to the point of where a decision has been made to part ways with the employee that they are a part of that process.
And they are actually the ones that are driving that. So I agree with you in terms of holding them accountable. But then also. Eliminating that perception that others have of HR being the mean person or the mean group or the rule enforcers as well. During the conversation, how can HR professionals make sure this potentially uncomfortable discussion goes smooth, as smoothly and as congenially as possible?
Tina Schust Robinson: That's great. If I could go back to what you were just saying,
um, I was thinking that exact same thing. I went for a walk this morning to sort of clear
my head and get into a good space for this. And, um, I don't know if we're allowed to swear on this podcast, possibly not cause it's an HR podcast, but, um, I was thinking of HR gets the bad rap. And so how do, by bringing the business leader in, um, we are, again, affirming HR's role as the advisor
and not the bad word that starts with A.
Because I was thinking of a good parallel word. Um, but yeah, HR diminishes its, um, The opportunity that HR can play in the organization, if HR is always the one that has to have those tough, uncomfortable conversations,
it can diminish the trust that employees have in HR, um, and make it harder for HR to do things like coach
or mentor. Or train or be a safe place for employees to come to share concerns in the workplace. So, I totally agree with what you said to go to your next question, um, about how do we ensure that there's grace?
I was chatting with a colleague of mine, uh, who has a long history working in HR too. And he said, We, we have to remember that it's a human
sitting on the
other side of us,
um, that HR is in such a challenging role of having to balance so many things we have to be the organizational steward. We are a representative of the organization. We are immersed in the business. So we, we are aware of the business challenges. And often. Involuntary terminations are tied to that.
And we have to be there for the employees and we have to be that human conduit. And those are really challenging roles to balance. I had a mentor say to me once she goes, okay, first, you're not going to be able to do all of those things in every conversation.
You're going to make somebody mad at you. You're going to feel like you failed in one of those areas because we're asking the impossible of HR to have to try to do all of those things equally. Well, and she said, if you ever stop feeling the effect of having to let somebody go,
Monique Akanbi: Yeah.
Tina Schust Robinson: then you
really need to step back because you have forgotten that it's a human on the other side. So I thought I, I, I've kept those two things in my head for a very long time. It is a human on the other side, and I am the organizational steward. And how do I find the balance point of that big, big believer in preparing, having a script, having my information in front of me,
Monique Akanbi: hmm. Mm
Tina Schust Robinson: If I'm nervous at this role playing with somebody else and less is more.
I have found that if I get
into a lot of details, then it becomes sort of like when I get into a lot of details with my, with my husband. Of why I'm upset. He starts going down the list going, well, that's wrong. And let me explain why, and that's wrong. And let me explain why versus keeping it at a higher level and ultimately having confidence in the decision.
This was not your decision as Tina. This was the organization's decision, and you are a representative of the organization. So depersonalize it while at the same time, remembering that it's a human, it's a really tough thing to do.
Monique Akanbi: that makes me think about a termination I facilitated years ago with an employee that was with the organization for a little over 20 years and her position was eliminated as a result of restructuring. But then there were also other positions that were available. And so during the position, the restructuring process.
Um, and we informed her of the other positions available and she expressed an interest, you know, she had been with the company for 20 plus years and we, um, were able to place her in that, in one of the open positions, very different than what she was doing before. And. Unfortunately, through a series of just performance coaching and training and other opportunities, ultimately, we decided that that really wasn't the position for her.
Um, and, um, through a series of just, you know, You know, exhausting every opportunity to really ensure that she was successful. um, the manager came to the conclusion that this is just really not a good fit. And so at that point I realized then I, I actually advocated for the employee. I went to my president.
That's who I reported to at the time and, and asked him, I said, well, you know, we've gone through the process. And he and I had a very great relationship and he trusted I was operating in the best interest of not only just the company, but also the employee. And so I asked him, I said, she was going to get a severance.
Um, if she, as a part of the position elimination, um, I would like to offer her that severance because she was committed to staying with the company. Unfortunately, just did not work. And so through a conversation and talking with him, he agreed that. to honor the severance that she would have gotten prior to taking the new position.
And that termination discussion and that process, you know, I offered to her, I said, if you would like, send me your resume, um, and I'll take a look at it because she hadn't gone on, you know, she hadn't searched for jobs or gone on interviews in over 20 years. And so, said, send me your resume when you get a moment and I'll take a look at it and give you some feedback.
And she was gathering her belongings, she looked at me. She said, you know what, Monique, I don't understand you. And I said, well, what do you mean? She said, well, you just fired me. And so I had to correct that, you know, she's like, but you just fired me, but you're trying to help me at the same time. And I shared with her, I said, that's because I don't ever want to see anyone without a position.
So if there's anything that I can do, and I recognize that you're a great individual, great employees, just that the position that you were in just really did not align with With your skill set. And so if there's anything that I can do to help you, then going back to recognizing that this is a human being on the other side of this conversation.
If there's anything that I can do to help, I, I, that's what I will do. Um, and so if anyone's emotions get heightened during conversations, I know there's been times where there's been tears, there's been anger, confusion. What are some tips? for HR professionals to handle those situations when emotions are high.
Tina Schust Robinson: that's such a great question. And thank you for sharing your story too.
I, uh,
Monique Akanbi: No,
Tina Schust Robinson: again, the empathy and the, and the humanity and having to represent the organization to deliver some very tough news. So love it. Oh, when emotions run high, hopefully. If you as the HR professional have prepared and have checked in with yourself and are managing your own emotions, then the emotions are not coming from you. That being said, things do happen. And so let's acknowledge that the emotions can come from either or both sides, especially if it's an employee that you've known for a very, very long time. Um, I think an underused technique is the pause. Which I just practiced right there. The pause, or look at that little role modeling, the pause, using silence and not rushing through can be a technique, thinking about ways to show empathy, to acknowledge the other person's emotions. I've often used the image of an emotion balloon. so as the emotions start building, the balloon gets bigger and bigger. And what you're trying to do is deflate the balloon slowly so that it doesn't pop so that there isn't a huge outburst. And so using empathy statements, like, I recognize this is a very tough thing to have to hear. I acknowledge your history with the organization. Be careful of saying, I understand what you're going through because that per, that person's going to say, no, you don't,
you didn't just lose.
So it's, it's finding those empathy statements to, uh, that acknowledge the other person as a human without diminishing what they're feeling or trying to create a false sense of empathy, but using the pause, using silence, also. Not belaboring the conversation and allowing that person to leave, perhaps take a few extra minutes without you in that room, just so they can collect themselves a lot depends on if this is an involuntary termination and you are escorting that person out or what the process is, what is the next step?
So thinking ahead to what is next and how and how visible is that going to be? So that person might need to collect themselves and just process the emotions a little bit. You don't want them tearing out of the room in an emotional state that then affects the other people around. And again, it also goes into thinking, where do I have this conversation? Is it in a very visible place in a glass walled room that everybody can see it? This person then opens the doors and everybody is there, or am I doing it in a place that allows some privacy to be able to collect themselves, maybe then go back to their desk, but give that person that grace.
Monique Akanbi: no, those are very good points, um, that you shared. And thank you for sharing that you referenced earlier in our discussion that your talk on graceful goodbyes was, um, specifically around voluntary terminations, right? So individuals leaving organizations, um, as we were in the height of what we called the great resignation era, right?
You outlined some ways that HR professionals can determine whether it's beneficial to get the employee to stay, or to keep the door open for their return. Um, can you elaborate a little more on that?
Tina Schust Robinson: I had a lot of fun sharing it. This is such a sticky one, and I'm sure you have stories. I have stories. What I have found is that by the time somebody is sitting in front of you saying that they are parting ways, It is really hard to retain that person.
And there have actually been studies done that say that counter offers are usually a short term fix.
Monique Akanbi: Yeah.
Tina Schust Robinson: And I have some of that information in my presentation. Um, there is some research done that said about a third of those who accepted a counteroffer from an employer left within six months and about
three quarters had left within a year. So a counteroffer often is a short term fix. Now, um, As much as possible, and I know hindsight is 2020, but ideally, we as HR leaders are coaching our managers to have regular stay conversations with their people so that they are not blindsided. When a high performer or somebody on their team comes to them and says, I want to part ways, they have an idea of what that person might be thinking.
And we're able to circumvent it early on. Now, um, the, the process that I walked through in the presentation is consider a counter offer. If there's a reasonable chance of matching or beating this new offer. Don't
promise more than the
organization can deliver. I know that
right now, return to office is a big thing. And so if
an employee is saying, you know, look, uh, you're asking me to come back four days a week, I have an offer with an organization that only needs me to come in one day per week. That may not be a gap that you can close. So don't
promise that you can close it. If you really can't, um, be careful about countering with money. Or benefits because that could exacerbate internal equity challenges that you already have. And it perpetuates this rumor that the only way to get more money out of the organization is to quit. And we've both heard that and seen that. Really think about if the employee can return to business as usual, can re engage or is this person already checked out? This person's already mentally on to what this new opportunity is, is going to present and don't offer to retain unless the manager can step up and have those meaningful conversations. That the
manager is going to own their part in the engagement of that employee. So those were the four things that we explored during the SHRM presentation.
Monique Akanbi: those are really great points, and I completely agree with you at that point. I used to always tell my managers it's a little too late and usually, um, they're the, it's a symptom the, the real reason why they are leaving. Um, and so, um, I often, you know, say at that point, if a decision has been made, then.
Go ahead and part, let them part ways, right? But also key, you can, if this is an employee that you would welcome back, you know, have that conversation as well.
Tina Schust Robinson: Absolutely.
Monique Akanbi: for you as we wrap up. Um, and that is party ways with employees. Some of whom could be our good friends. We establish relationships and friendships with individuals that we work with.
Sometimes can be stressful, um, or even disheartening. Um, are there any tips you have for HR professionals for own self care throughout these transitions?
Tina Schust Robinson: It's such a great question when, when I read it on the list as I was preparing, my first thought was I never made friends with people outside of HR because I never wanted to put myself in the position. It was rare.
Um, but I was always very aware of my role as an organizational steward. so I don't have as much personal experience here, partly because of the boundary that I kept. That was just Tina. We could psychoanalyze me all day. That's a whole other podcast. That being said, um, recognize that the relationship may not be perfect. And if it does, it's going to take some time. Now, it is, if you have a personal relationship with the person who's sitting on the other side of you, and a lot of it depends if it's voluntary or involuntary.
Let's start with, with voluntary. As part of that conversation, you could say, I'm, I'm excited for this new opportunity for you. From everything you've shared with me, I am It sounds like it's really going to honor what you are looking for next in your career. I have really valued our workplace friendship. And when you're settled into your new role, I would love it if we could grab lunch a little bit, put it on the other person when they're ready. Cause the other person might really want to just say the past is the past. And the relationship may not transcend that. If it's involuntary, definitely trickier. You can say during the conversation that you have appreciated the friendship that the two of you have built and You would love to stay in touch, but recognize that some time might need to go by. And I would say there's so much of reading the room in the moment to figure out if that is the place to say it. You also might want to just, Do those emotionally intelligent things, recognize that the other person is human, let some time go by, and then if you really are, if you really do have a relationship with this person outside of work, check in with that person outside of work a little bit later, and maybe even say, I am putting my Tina hat on my HR hat is off, but I know it's been a week and I wanted to check in and see how it goes.
Monique Akanbi: Thank you so much for sharing that Tina and this conversation has been so refreshing. Um, and that is going to do it for this week's episode of Honest HR. A big thank you to Tina for being our guest and sharing her deep insights with us. Honest HR is part of SHRM's HR Daily flagship content series.
To learn more or view or, more content, head to SHRM. org slash HR Daily to learn more and sign up for the daily newsletter. You can also catch us on SHRM's social media, like, comment, and be a part of the conversation. Thanks for joining and see you next time.
Rate/review Honest HR on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.