How can you tell if you or a colleague is suffering from burnout? How do you then recover from and prevent it? Host Monique Akanbi dives into these questions with Deidre Gestrin, Founder at Abundant Wellness Essentials, Wellness Consultant, Author, and Trainer. From the individual to organizational level, Deidre shares actionable insights on how to manage burnout.
How can you tell if you or a colleague is suffering from burnout? How do you then recover from and prevent it? Host Monique Akanbi dives into these questions with Deidre Gestrin, Founder at Abundant Wellness Essentials, Wellness Consultant, Author, and Trainer. From the individual to organizational level, Deidre shares actionable insights on how to manage burnout.
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Monique Akanbi:
Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for informed and aspiring HR professionals intent on transforming workplace challenges into golden opportunities.
Amber Clayton:
Every week, we chat with industry experts to bring you insights, trends, and actionable advice through relatable stories from the real world of HR.
Wendy Fong:
Honest HR is a SHRM podcast, and by joining us, you're helping to build a more engaged workforce and drive organizational success. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Monique Akanbi:
And I'm Monique Akanbi. Now, let's get honest.
Amber Clayton:
Now, let's get honest.
Wendy Fong:
Now, let's get honest.
Monique Akanbi:
Welcome to Honest HR. I'm Monique Akanbi, membership initiative director with SHRM, and our guest is Deidre Gestrin. Welcome to Honest HR, Deidre.
Deidre Gestrin:
Thanks for having me, Monique. It's good to be here.
Monique Akanbi:
Just before we even get started, I'm really excited to learn about burnout, only because, especially over the last couple of years, a lot of my friends and colleagues, we've had this discussion around burnout, and we see it come up everywhere. But before we talk about that topic, I really want our audience to know who Deidre is, and also if you can share more about the Abundant Wellness Essentials.
Deidre Gestrin:
So I actually started my career in the behavioral health field. So I've been a licensed mental health counselor for, I think, going on 15 years now, specializing there with kids and trauma work and adults. And just kind of through my experience, that's kind of where I moved into starting my business, Abundant Wellness Essentials, where my focus is really on helping organizations and professionals transform burnout.
We have so many people getting burnt out and changing careers in the healthcare field. They just leave, do something completely different. And I have a real strong desire to see people who are in especially the healthcare field, but I think any field, stay in the career that they chose, not leave because of burnout or broken systems. And so, that's kind of where my journey with that started, my own experience, and then just what I was seeing as a mental health professional.
Monique Akanbi:
It makes me think about when I practiced HR and then we were in the thick of the pandemic during COVID-19, and you talk about healthcare professionals. But I know for many of my friends who were in HR, many of them were even questioning, "Do I still want to be in human resources?" because a lot of them were experiencing burnout as well. So I think in all industries, in all fields, some of us experience burnout in one way or another. So in your opinion, how would you define burnout, and how does that differ from just regular work stress?
Deidre Gestrin:
Well, I define burnout as kind of the next step after stress. So the way I conceptualize it is we've got this stress-burnout cycle, and it's kind of this ladder that we climb, and we start with where we're at homeostasis. Right? So things are fine, loving life, handling whatever's going on at work or home, and then something in life causes some stress. Right?
Monique Akanbi:
Mm-hmm.
Deidre Gestrin:
But as we climb up, when we talk about workplace stress, that can fall in stress or chronic stress. So chronic stress is like one thing after another and it doesn't stop. Right? And I think of it as a rubber band. We can stretch a rubber band, and it goes back to original shape. And that's how we're really designed with our stress response, is to stretch and handle situations, and then come back to homeostasis.
However, workplace stress... And it's not just workplace stress that actually causes burnout. It is the most common and the most widely talked about. But the longer we stretch and stay in chronic stress, we actually will move up into burnout where we might start to not come back. Right? We stretch to where we can break a rubber band.
Well, when we're starting to move into burnout, we're at that point, because it'll start to affect our health and other areas, and then we can actually go beyond that and start having trauma symptoms. And so, that's kind of how I view it, is it's like this ladder and we just keep climbing. So if we're at a space of burnout, it's a long process to recover.
Monique Akanbi:
Got it. So then the difference is, stress is that precursor to burnout. And if unaddressed, it leads to burnout, and using that analogy of a rubber band stretching. Would that be adequate?
Deidre Gestrin:
Yeah. Absolutely. You got that. And one thing I would add to that is, when we talk about stress, there's a lot of conversations around eustress and distress. So eustress is good. Think about what motivates you to get tasks done at work or get those bills paid. Right? There's a little bit of stress. So we need it a little bit to keep moving forward, but it becomes distress when it's chronic and has that negative impact on us.
Monique Akanbi:
So there is such thing as good stress then, right?
Deidre Gestrin:
There is. Just a little bit. I don't lean into that side a whole lot.
Monique Akanbi:
Right. What are some signs of burnout that people may not notice in themselves and then also in their colleagues or others?
Deidre Gestrin:
Oh, I love that question. So I would say that if we try to categorize them, what do you notice? What do you not? Right? Some of the common ones people talk about is not sleeping, irritable. They feel like they're just kind of nonstop. But the ones that we don't notice, and I think we can contribute it to other things and that's where it's challenging, are things such as they're not focused. Right? Sitting in a meeting, where's your focus? Are you listening? Are you off somewhere else in your mind? Because there's just so much going on. Right?
Sometimes we have these things kind of rolling in the back of our mind so we don't forget them, but how much is that impacting the work we're doing? So we won't be focused. I know in the mental health field, sometimes it's, "I don't want people to show up today." And it's not that I don't want to help clients. It's that, "Am I in a space to truly be present and help them?"
So if we're not present, I've seen colleagues who get really cynical and negative, or they're calling out from work all the time, because all of a sudden, they're sick. Right? You see people who weren't ever sick, and then all of a sudden, "Why are they calling out so much?" Well, those are all signs that they're probably burnt out, and we're not recognizing it for what it is.
Monique Akanbi:
Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that. And then you shared kind of the main causes of burnout where it could be either life circumstances or work circumstances, or a combination of the two, and you talked about good stress, right? So eustress and distress as well. How do you balance all of that, so that way, you don't get to the point of burnout? So you start seeing or feeling the stress or experiencing the stress. How does someone recognize, "I am having stress that may not be good for me. It's not that good stress. It's becoming chronic, and I don't want to get to the place of being burnt out"?
Deidre Gestrin:
Right. And we really have to have that internal awareness. I think that's what we miss a lot. We get so focused on what's going on out here. Right? "What do I have to do out here? What do I have to do for the kids or for my boss or for my friends or my family?" So we're all so externally focused that people lose sight of what changes in their physical body or in their mind to tell them that maybe they're starting to shift from stress to burnout.
And one of the biggest signs that I encourage people to pay attention to is routine, if your routine shifts. Right? So when I hit my third round of burnout in 15 years, I went from sleeping 10 hours to working 24/7, and that's pretty literal. I would do my day job all day, and then I would be back at the ER, helping our crisis worker at night. So it was like 10 hours of sleep to, I don't know, two. Right?
And so, little signs like that, like patterns that shift, morning routines, things that help you feel good. People do meditation. They do prayer. They exercise. And as soon as you're shifting and stuck in that chronic stress state, those things start to disappear, like you quit doing them. Right? My morning routine left so I could try sleep. Not that it helped, but that's a pattern. So paying attention to those patterns, paying attention to, "Where am I at?" That internal check-in of, "Am I doing okay? What's shifted?"
Monique Akanbi:
You mentioned something that piqued my curiosity when you said you reached your third point of burnout in 15 years.
Deidre Gestrin:
I did. I did.
Monique Akanbi:
So what I immediately thought was, "Well, burnout can occur, and it can occur multiple times." Can you talk to us a little bit about just even from your personal experience of recognizing that you've reached your third point of burnout in 15 years?
Deidre Gestrin:
Yeah. So when I hit that third point of burnout, like I said, I was literally working 24/7. We had a lot going on that we were trying to fix for the company, and I kept speaking up because I knew things were shifting, because sleep, in my own health journey, I had learned I have to prioritize sleep. And so, I was getting pretty cranky, snapping at people, snapping at a supervisor, and I knew something was off, and I kept asking for what needed to change.
But there was probably two significant points in that journey. One was my doctor's appointment. I work with what's called a functional medicine doctor, so trying to heal some root causes of stuff that I'd been dealing with for a long time. And in that particular visit, he said, "Your job is killing you. If you don't make a change, I can't help you." And he closed his folder, and I went, "Oh, boy. Yup. Something's wrong."
But then you start thinking, what can you do? "How do I make a change?" Because the mental health system in particular is very taxed at that point, and we're talking, this was in 2018. Right? So pre-pandemic, and it was already taxed. But the next significant conversation was actually with one of my colleagues, and talking to him about, "Yeah. My labs and stuff were not very good. My doctor wasn't happy." And he looked at me and said, "Deidre, use FMLA."
I would never would have thought about that. Right? I could think about that for people I supervise. But for myself, I hadn't really clicked until that moment. So that's what I did. I took FMLA. I took 30 days to start to heal and reflect, because I needed to get back to, "Okay. What has to change?" Right? I knew I'd been asking for what I needed for a year. It wasn't happening. But I had been so exhausted that all the progress I'd made health-wise just completely reversed.
Weight started coming back on, eating like crap again, not sleeping, and I knew like, "Hmm, this isn't good." And so, that's really, just to share a little, my personal journey of, "Yeah. We have to have that self-awareness," but speaking up for ourselves. Right? So I had been speaking up for myself for a year. I should have made a change at least six months before I did, because I knew my needs, and they weren't being listened to.
Monique Akanbi:
Thank you for sharing that. I'm just thinking, even in my own personal journey, and many of us, especially if you're driven, how do you balance drive and burnout as well? Because for me, I am very much of, "Get it done. Get it done. Get it done," and maybe not necessarily pausing to listen to myself to say, "Monique, you may be at that point of burnout," but because my drive is overriding the burnout. How do you balance the two if you're a driven person, where you want to get things done? High achiever, high achievement. How do you balance that?
Deidre Gestrin:
Oh, that's a wonderful question. That is, in some respects, a tough one. Right? I think there's a couple of paths on that one. I would put myself in that category. Right? If something needs done, I'll do it. Just help get it done. But part of my journey was, as a high performer, I had to look at why do I keep saying yes, that whole people-pleasing. That was part of my high performance.
And so, looking at that kind of root cause, and I really explored the Enneagram. I kind of pulled that into that whole process, and I was like, "Oh, okay. That's why," or looking at attachment styles, "That makes sense." So healing those kind of underlying drivers of why. Why do we strive so much? But then there is that other part where we have to look at what is the balance we want in life, and are we keeping that a priority? Right? And we can have friends and family who say, "Something's wrong. What are you doing?" But what do we do as high performers? "Heh, I'm fine."
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Deidre Gestrin:
But it really is, it has to be a conscious choice of, "Okay. I want balance." Right? And that's a lot of conversations I've had lately, is, "How do I get that balance? What is balance?" Well, it is an ongoing assessment, because my balance today will not be my balance in a year, and it wasn't six months ago.
Monique Akanbi:
Right.
Deidre Gestrin:
Right? So we have to make this conscious choice to constantly assess, be aware, and make choices around our priorities, because that's how we're going to keep ourselves in check, but also look at, why do you push to drive so hard? Right? And I do think part of that comes from society too.
Monique Akanbi:
You push the button in me, but I'm going to go on, because now I'm thinking like, "Ooh, Monique, what is driving your drive?" Right?
Deidre Gestrin:
Right.
Monique Akanbi:
Do you think remote work has influenced burnout? And if so, how?
Deidre Gestrin:
Absolutely. I actually saw, within my mental health practice, more people specifically for burnout, and that's the words they would use when they showed up, because of remote work. And I think factors that play into that is, there's this perception that, "Well, I don't have a commute, so now I'm expected to work longer hours," or because you're remote, expectation is you have messaging apps and email on your phone. So now people get super anxious and check their messages and their email 24/7. Right?
They check it when they first wake up. They check it before they go to bed. So then the only thing they're thinking about is work. Right? So you've got that going on, and then you've got, depending on how your house is set up, are you working in the same space you eat or your living room? So you see your work computer or workstation 24/7. Right? So if you're seeing it all the time, how are you supposed to mentally turn off from work?
Monique Akanbi:
It's calling me. It's calling me. Right.
Deidre Gestrin:
It is. It's always calling. Yeah. And so, I've seen a lot of burnout increase because of remote work, because people, all of a sudden, are like, "I don't know how to separate this," or "I miss my transition time," because you drive to work. You can mentally get ready for the day, and come home. You can mentally make that shift with whatever that looks like, and that was gone, and that is gone for anybody who works remote.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
Deidre Gestrin:
Yeah.
Monique Akanbi:
If left unaddressed, what long-term toll can burnout have, not just on employees, but the entire organization?
Deidre Gestrin:
In my experience and in all the research I've been doing, long-term effects of burnout really come back to health issues, because the more we live in that state of stress, our physical body does not function the way it was designed. Right? And so, we see a lot more things like inflammation, arthritis, diabetes. Those are things that showed up for me because of stress, and I can 100% contribute it to that through my journey.
I truly think that we have other diseases that show up there that are all inflammation-based, and it's because when we're stressed, our bodies shift where that energy and that blood flow goes so that we can get through whatever is going on in that stressful situation. So I truly believe the long-term effects are we're going to have people who physically can't work. I mean, if I hadn't have ended up with unemployment through my shifts around, I don't know where I would be today, because I physically could not walk 100 feet.
Monique Akanbi:
Wow.
Deidre Gestrin:
I physically could not stand for five minutes when I hit the worst episode of burnout in 2018, and that journey really took me into 2019 when I got to have that time. And so, when I reflect on that, it's that health. So then you ask individually and organizationally. Individually, you can't work. You can't function. Right? So how are you taking care of family? As an organization, you don't have enough people at work, because people are calling out all the time, or they end up on disability because they physically can't do it anymore. That's my biggest concern with burnout, that that's where it's going to take us.
Monique Akanbi:
So I hear it can impact the organization from a productivity standpoint, absenteeism, even engagement, employee engagement. I know a lot of organizations focus on employee engagement. And if I think about even the moments where I hit burnout, sometimes I had to have that honest conversation with myself that I am the VP of people and culture at an organization, and I saw myself hitting burnout, and started to see myself become disengaged. Right?
And so then, that could potentially have an impact on an organization. So what are some things or practices that an individual can do to prevent burnout? Right? So recognizing those stressors, but what are some practical things that someone can do to prevent reaching that place of burnout?
Deidre Gestrin:
I would say that I have probably two of my top favorite that the... And this is where I start with anybody I talk to who's struggling with burnout, is, one, how you're able to manage stress in the moment. Right? So another analogy I use is, we live in a society that's very fast-paced, and we feel like we are not contributing to society or doing enough if we're not "go, go, go," or doing, let's say, five things at once.
Monique Akanbi:
Yup.
Deidre Gestrin:
But what I've found is that when we do that, our breathing matches that pace, which means we breathe shallow from our lungs. And if you think about or have been around anybody who has extreme anxiety or panic attacks, what happens? They hold their breath. Well, the more we breathe shallow and hold our breath, the quicker our stress response activates. So then we stay in that heightened stress state.
And so, one of my favorite, I'd say, techniques I work with people on is we have to get back to that deep diaphragmatic breathing, because what that does is, in moments of stress, I'm going to take a deep breath, which means I'm going to pause, and I'm going to think a little bit clearer how to get through the situation. Right? So on one hand, that keeps the stress level lower, where we want it. And I found that as I teach this to people, I do it all the time. Right? And then when we make that a practice, and I have a lot of people that go, "Teacher, are you serious?" Because it seems so basic.
Monique Akanbi:
Right.
Deidre Gestrin:
But I think when we talk about trying to overcome burnout, that's truly, we have to get back to some basics. Right? We have some fundamental ways that we function that we've missed because of this fast-paced life we think we have to live. And so, that's one of my favorites, is let's get back to deep breathing, and I go, "What's your bedtime routine look like?" Right? Because when we sleep, we all know our physical bodies recover during sleep, but our mental and emotional parts of our brain also recover, meaning we can process everything that happened from the day and kind of wake up in the morning with a clean slate. So we don't necessarily wake up at the same stress level if we got good sleep.
And so, those two things along with what's important to you. Right? So for me, if it's exercise and my morning devotional time, then I better make sure those are in my routine and they stay there, because those are the things that are going to help me get through stress. Right? A lot of people like to start the day with gratitude. That's another great thing, because it shifts your brain out of the negative space back into the positive. And so, it really is just come back to the basics. Come back to what seems simple, because that's what works.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah. Well, I'm glad you didn't say running, because I'll stay in a state of burnout for the rest of my life. Sorry, I'm just kidding. But a lot of what you share resonated with me. Right? Just deep breathing and gratitude, and just find sleep as well, right? I'm bad at that. I'm guilty. I don't have a bedtime. It's just whenever my eyes close, which creates a sporadic sleep pattern. Right?
Deidre Gestrin:
Right.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah.
Deidre Gestrin:
Right.
Monique Akanbi:
Okay. I hear you.
Deidre Gestrin:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Monique Akanbi:
I hear you.
Deidre Gestrin:
Well, it's the first thing to go, because we try and find more hours in the day. We can't find more hours in the day. Right? Let's be honest with that. We just can't. We try by ditching sleep, and then we have other effects.
Monique Akanbi:
That's true. You mentioned FMLA for yourself and where you never thought of it for yourself, but for maybe those that you supervised. So how can managers or leaders recognize and respond to burnout within their teams?
Deidre Gestrin:
Well, I honestly think the first step is leaders need to support the use of PTO. I've had so many conversations, and I saw it when I was working in agencies too, that companies offer benefits, time off for the purpose of getting better, rejuvenate, but then they treat people like it's bad to use it. They treat them terrible when they come back, so people don't want to use it. And I've seen and heard this time and again, and I think that's where it starts.
You offer it, encourage people to use it, because if you let them use it and you treat them good for using it, they're going to work harder. And let's face it, they'll be more productive, and they'll be more inclined to stick around, because their needs are being respected. And so, I think that's really the first one, is respecting. Let people take time off. Respect everybody has a family in some way. And so, don't expect them to stay at work past their normal work hours. Right?
We've got to come back to we don't work 24/7. We have certain work hours. Let me work my time or let me have, like, "Here's the tasks. Here's your jobs. And as long as you're getting them done, come and go." So we've kind of lost some of that, I think, trust in employees, and then just, we have to respect and support. Right? Where is the support? If people feel supported, they're going to handle that stress better, but a lot of people don't if they're burnt out.
Monique Akanbi:
Are there other ways outside of maybe just PTO or benefits employers can offer to support their employees to prevent burnout?
Deidre Gestrin:
Yeah. A lot of employers in there, I think they're offering it more so now. I mean, they've always had a health plan. Right? Most companies always offer one. And what people don't necessarily realize is, in the health plan, there is some form of mental health services, but I've seen over the last five years that companies are really promoting mental health services more, signing up for employee assistance programs, pushing and encouraging people to use that.
And I think those are all great resources. Right? I've worked for companies who offer a gym membership as a way to, "Hey, go take care of yourself." And so, I think it's just getting creative and figuring out what your particular team is looking for. Right? Some people really thrive in environments where they feel like they're part of a team or it's more of a family. So you get together. Right? Go have dinner or whatever.
So it's just kind of getting creative. Think outside the box of what helps people feel that support, feel like they're wanted and their opinions matter. People give up when they don't feel like they have an opinion, if they're not allowed to at work, because it just gets dismissed.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah. I'm curious of your perspective on leaders role modeling, recognizing that they've reached a point of burnout. And I ask that because years ago, when I practiced HR, we were at a leadership team meeting, and we were discussing who's our emerging leaders, and we identified this group of individuals that had the competencies that we believed were essential to being our next group of leaders within the organization. And what I discovered through conversation with these individuals is that the perception that was created of our leaders was that they were always busy. They were always working.
So for them, they wanted no part of being a leader. Right? And I think one of probably the most powerful things that you can do as a leader is role-model the behavior that you want others to see. So if you want others to recognize or be aware if they're reaching a point of burnout, what's your perspective or words of encouragement for someone who may be a senior leader within their organization and they're afraid to be vulnerable and say, "I'm the most senior leader, and I'm at burnout"?
Deidre Gestrin:
Right. Right.
Monique Akanbi:
What words of encouragement will you have for that person?
Deidre Gestrin:
Well, first, I would say that I think you hit on something that's true. And leaders, we're not the best examples. And I think part of that's just if something needs to get done, we're going to be the first ones to do it, or if there's a problem that comes up or a crisis that comes up, who has to handle it? The leaders.
And I don't think it's always intentional, but I think there's that difference of, leaders sign up for that. They are salaried, so then they just work whatever hours are necessary. So I think that's difficult. Right? But I do think leaders can set that precedence and make sure you're doing the same thing you encourage. Right? I've always tried to really make sure that I practice what I preach. So I always would take my time off even if I didn't feel like I could, because, let's face it, as a leader, your work is 10 times more if you do take time off.
However, what do you give up? So do I take time off so I can recover and then just deal with it when I come back, or do I just not, because then I'm going to get burnt out? So I do think as leaders, as I talk to a lot of people, work will never stop. Let's just be honest. It will never stop. And so, we have to shift our mindset around that of, "I can do that tomorrow," or "I will deal with it when I get back."
Using the same benefits. Right? If you're struggling, reach out for help. Insurances cover it. I think it's that, again, leaders might not get burnt out if they trusted those they hire. You hired them to do a job because they have a skill set. Let them do it. Right? I do see a lot of leaders who tend to micromanage in some ways. And so, you're absolutely right. People who could make good leaders go, "Why? That does not look like fun. It looks like more work." Well, it is more work, but let's come back to, we each have the power to decide what people see us do.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah.
Deidre Gestrin:
Right? So employees might see me work late hours. But unless there was a crisis or I was on call, I wouldn't come in on the weekends. I'd leave town, or I would use my PTO all the time, made sure I took it. And so, it really is just, leaders, we can do the same thing. We just have to shift how we view work, because it won't ever stop. So we don't have to get everything done today. It's okay if it goes to tomorrow. It's just the way work life is.
Monique Akanbi:
Yeah. A good friend of mine told me years ago, he's like, "Monique, you can't outwork work."
Deidre Gestrin:
You can't. You can't.
Monique Akanbi:
And I keep that in the back of my mind because of that. So last question for you. Thank you. I don't know if our audience can probably see the invisible slaps that you've been giving me our entire conversation, but they were much needed. What is one thing you wish more workplaces would understand about burnout?
Deidre Gestrin:
That's a wonderful question. The first thing that comes to mind is that people are human, and work is not the only thing they have in life. And sometimes I think we forget that. Right? We can't just leave whatever stress is going on in our personal lives at the door when we walk into work. We can't. We're one human. We're one being. Right? And that's like asking us to separate ourselves.
And so, I think that's something for organizations and leaders to just be aware of, is, if somebody is stressed, could it be work? Absolutely. But could it be something else and we need to have some grace with that? Yes. Right? And so, I think one of the things I would say as far as burnout is recognize it can come from other areas in life, not just work. However, we also have the power to make sure it's not coming from work, and I don't think many organizations put that forth.
Monique Akanbi:
Words of the wise. Thank you so much, Deidre, for talking to us about burnout. I know that has helped me, and hopefully, it has helped our audience as well.
Deidre Gestrin:
Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 5:
This podcast is approved to provide 0.5 professional development credits, or PDCs, towards SHRM-CP and SHRM-SCP recertification. Enter this PDC activity ID into your SHRM activity portal to claim your credit, 26-NCVPT. Again, the PDC activity ID is 26-NCVPT. Please note, this code expires February 1st, 2026.