<p>Callie and Logan talk talent calibration in an unlikely industry--difficult conversations, improved performance and clearer expectations.<br /><br />Listen in as they discuss how HR being there makes it all happen and how it gets easier as you go. Plus, pilot programs work.</p>
Callie and Logan talk talent calibration in an unlikely industry--difficult conversations, improved performance and clearer expectations.
Listen in as they discuss how HR being there makes it all happen and how it gets easier as you go. Plus, pilot programs work.
Callie Zipple:
Welcome back everyone to Honest HR, a podcast from SHRM. I am your host Callie Zipple. As a special reminder for those who either come back week to week or are first on the podcast this week, we try to do different topics and different guests every week. And that's because we want to bring you something that resonates with you and not something that you have to keep coming back to week after week and not finding something that you enjoy, or that speaks to what you're doing in your job.
So we're back again with a new topic, a new guest, and I'm excited to have Logan on this week's podcast. I'm going to let him tell you a little bit about himself, but our topic this week is this idea of talent calibration. And we'll get into that a little bit. Logan works at a company that does it a little bit differently than some of the companies that I've worked with, but I'm really excited for him to tell his story and his approach, his company's approach, to this idea of talent calibration.
So Logan, welcome. Thank you for being here. Take a moment to tell us about yourself and where you work, and then we'll jump into this idea of talent calibration.
Logan Wallick:
Thanks Callie. Hi everybody, my name is Logan Wallick and I am the director of people operations at Suffolk Construction. So we are a national construction firm and we are transforming the construction experience by building smart. So in my role, I was previously an HR business partner at Suffolk for the Southeast region. And most recently moved into a national role on the people and culture operations team.
So at Suffolk, we have about 2000 employees nationwide. Here in the Southeast region where I'm based, we have about 400. And my first role as a true business partner was here at Suffolk. And now looking more into the operational side of people and culture or, in the broader terms, HR.
Callie Zipple:
I'm probably going to make you uncomfortable by doing this, but congratulations on your new role.
Logan Wallick:
Thank you.
Callie Zipple:
Can we call it a promotion? It was a promotion, right?
Logan Wallick:
Yes, we can.
Callie Zipple:
Awesome. Well, congratulations. And I'm excited to follow you through your new position. We're friends on LinkedIn and I just love seeing people be awarded for good performance at companies that value that. So again, congratulations. I think it's great. You have this national role, this national spotlight now on you, so good things for you. So congrats.
Logan Wallick:
Yeah. Thank you, Callie.
Callie Zipple:
So as I mentioned, today's topic is talent calibration, and you've been so great to explain to me your process, and I'll be honest, it's different than any process that I have been privy to in the past. So tell us why, first of all, your organization sees this process as so important and then how your company goes about this talent calibration idea.
Logan Wallick:
Yeah. So I think the main 'why?' is that it, overall, improves the accuracy of ratings that employees are given each year. It's a new process at Suffolk that we hadn't previously done, so we're in our second year of doing talent calibration and it takes on a couple of different forms at Suffolk.
We calibrate overall performance rating for the fiscal year, and then we also calibrate with a talent development mapping process. So two components at Suffolk that we really use to take a look at our talent each year. It's a way for consistent application, justification of rating levels and it's relative to peer performance. So we not only do a calibration across project teams, but also across position titles. We also do it because our managers become more accountable to each other. It's an open, larger discussion, and our managers also get the clarification of other performance standards across the company. So I think it not only gives employees a solid baseline each year on their performance, but it gets managers really talking about what is our performance expectations. And it also gives the managers a tool to have those conversations with employees.
Callie Zipple:
Full disclosure: I actually have never successfully gone through a full cycle of this talent calibration idea. I've done some planning, I've done some training on what we called nine boxing, but it's a form of this talent calibration. And I have to tell you, it was super overwhelming. The idea of getting a bunch of managers in a room to talk about their people openly and honestly, was something that I was worried about. And I think it's because the organization that I was at was going through a lot of change. And I think that was making our managers a little bit weary of this idea of, again, being fully and honestly open about their people.
Because when you go through change, what's the first thing that happens? You sort of go through people and you figure out whether or not they're in the right role. So I think this idea of talent calibration really needs to be done in the right environment. Is that a fair thing to say?
Logan Wallick:
Yeah, very much so. I think we do pretty well with change, but you can imagine a general contractor, construction management company is somewhat old school. And I think that's one thing that our managers and leadership team really recognized that this process was super important to get us to the next spot and the next level. So that was why it was driven at that point. And one thing we did to kind of soften that blow is that we identified specific groups, whether that was a project team or a department, to be part of a pilot program that we did the talent calibration and development mapping with before we jumped in and made this an organization wide.
And trust me, it's not the perfect process, and each year we get better. I feel pretty solid this year, but last year it was brand new for the entire group. So it's a work in progress, I think, in any company.
Callie Zipple:
So let the record show people, pilot programs work. I think that is...
Logan Wallick:
That is true.
Callie Zipple:
... Such a... When you're implementing any sort of large process or any sort of policy, starting it with a pilot group is a really good idea, because then you can get a finger on the rest of the organization without necessarily putting them in an uncomfortable spot like you are the pilot program. And obviously you have to pick the right pilots, right? But pilot programs, for me, seem to be this glimmer of hope when you're implementing this huge change for an organization. So, again, let the record show pilot programs work, people.
I'm going to move on to the next question here, and it's about the methods that you use for talent calibration. You mentioned a two step process. So get us a little bit deeper into that process. What does the first step look like? And then what does the overlay of the second step look like and help us understand how you feel that's helping the employees at your organization and your organization as a whole?
Logan Wallick:
Absolutely. So the first thing, and again, this is all off of our fiscal year, so we're heavy in the middle of our process right now. Our fiscal year ends 8/31 and immediately that opens up a self review period where our employees fill out their self appraisals, and then those move on about two weeks later to a manager input.
And we do road shows. So we have, in the past two years, gone out to every project site and every office location. So a huge lift on the people and culture team here at Suffolk, but we visit every project site and every team in the offices to make sure that they're aware of, not only what the calendar looks like, but why we do these things and the general overview of the process. So our calibration meetings kick off after managers have completed the review form, and we really take a look at the overall rating that managers assign to employees.
So first off we go out to each project team and we look at the individuals that are there on that site. We calibrate overall performance rating, and we calibrate on the development map. Or as you mentioned, Callie, the nine box. We call it a development map here at Suffolk, but very similar on paper. Once we have those recommendations from the project team level, we actually meet as a regional leadership team or a corporate function and take a look at position title. So we calibrate then based on the recommendation of those stakeholders that are in the day to day interaction, we calibrate across organizations. So across the region, across the company, however those position titles fall. And really what comes out of those top level meetings is what sticks, but it's a great way to do it because you have two sets of eyes, and throughout that process, probably five to 10 individuals looking at any one employee's overall performance rating and development map position.
So that's been the method we've used for about two years now. And as I mentioned earlier, we didn't have a method of calibrating performance prior to 2016, so fairly new process for our group. It's been a huge culture shift for the company, from a five page paper form that may or may not have been shared with the employee and may or may not have been skip-level shared up the chain of managers and leaders to now entire project team leadership looking at these ratings before they're going in front of employees, and really assigning that development map position to those employees.
Callie Zipple:
So this sounds like a pretty in depth process for your managers. Is that fair to say?
Logan Wallick:
Yes, it is a very fair assessment, but I think the importance is shown. And now that we have a baseline of proof from 2017 and 2016, I think they've realized just why and how important it is.
Callie Zipple:
So do you think that if one of our listeners or a few of our listeners are at an organization where managers aren't putting as much importance into their current performance review process, that this idea of talent calibration, where keep in mind, all of these managers have to get into a room and talk about the appraisals that they're giving to their employees.
Do you feel like there has to be a certain respect for the talent, or the performance review process, before you can step up into this talent calibration process?
Logan Wallick:
Absolutely. I think one thing that has driven that is that we fully define what these performance ratings look like based on actions and the behaviors that exhibit those across the organization. So we've got a nice, true definition of what the performance looks like to get all the managers on the same page, and then we can be very objective and relative to the peer groups.
Callie Zipple:
I'm shooting us ahead of our general outline that I shared with you for this conversation, but I'm going to talk a little bit more about the manager piece of it. I would imagine that, in addition to HR, managers are a vital piece of this process. So there has to be a level of buy-in from your managers. Have you ever had an opportunity or a situation where there was maybe one manager who was either brand new in their role, and didn't really understand this process, or just wasn't really interested in the process? And did you see this talent calibration idea or these conversations with other managers break down as a result of that? And how did you handle that as an HR individual?
Logan Wallick:
Yeah, there were a few, and I think the eye opener is when a review or development map position is calibrated down in relative performance, that managers really start to pay attention. That, number one, this is why setting goals is so important up front. That we have an entire goal setting process and to measure performance, you have to have good clear goals.
So managers realize that piece is so important on their end at the beginning of the fiscal year, when they're setting goals with their director reports, but also then when they come in the room and it's really about arguing their case, because we don't force rank anyone at Suffolk, so I think managers have that flexibility. But they also know that they need to be bought into the process and come ready to defend if someone else doesn't have that same view of their employees.
So in addition to asking for peer feedback and things like that, they have a good assessment of their talent, but they definitely have to be accountable to each other on the project teams and in the different departments that interact with their employees.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah, I can imagine that manager's input and being able to express that input when there are other managers in the room is a really important part of this process.
But the other important part of this process, I think, is HR's role. So without HR's role to push this conversation forward and make sure that the managers are being held accountable to the ratings that they're giving, I wouldn't imagine this process being very successful. So how vital do you think HR and the business partners, and I guess the HR department as a whole, is to this calibration process?
Logan Wallick:
Extremely vital to the talent calibration process. And I think the way that we've shown the importance is driving the process and making sure that we're out there and we're visible, especially during these three months that we're working through this process. And I think as a business partner, it's so important because you having that visibility to the team. And as much of a pain as it is to go to the job sites and coordinate these road shows and be out there, sometimes an entire week visiting different locations and job sites, because we do these in person at Suffolk, the calibration meetings. We know the business, we meet the individuals... You may have just emailed, or had a call, or sent a Skype to somebody over the past six months or 12 months of working at Suffolk, but this really puts us out in front and teaches us the business.
Because you hear the conversations of what these people are truly doing on a daily basis and the 'why?' behind them wanting to be a part of Suffolk or wanting to perform the way that they do. And it's not always sunshine and rainbows. It's difficult conversations too. And sometimes you realize through this process that there may be issues that have been kind of ongoing and this really pulls out the conversation. So I think without HR being involved in the process, the conversations wouldn't happen.
So I think it's a dual benefit that you're out there, you're learning the business, but at the same time, it benefits the team just as much because they like to have conversations, a lot of tough conversations with different stakeholders in the business. But a lot of times they don't want to talk about the people. So for us to be a part of that and drive that conversation and set the example I think is super important.
Callie Zipple:
And I would imagine too, as an HR individual, when those managers are all coming into the room and talking about the first performance calibration, you learn a lot about the employees on their team, as well as the managers. So I would imagine that these conversations are just enlightening, because you're able to see into the way that other people... As HR practitioners, we hear a lot from specific managers about how their employees are stellar performers and they deserve more money and all of this sort of stuff.
But when you can hear other managers weighing in on that person's performance, maybe they are a stellar performer, and we need to consider that as HR, but maybe we're also hearing a little bit that that is inflated by that manager. So I would imagine that those conversations as an HR individual are just super great to be involved in.
Logan Wallick:
Yeah, they are. It's funny because we will simply go back and look at the ratings that we have here at Suffolk, and we say, "Okay, team, we're saying above and beyond performance on this individual. Is it really?" And we'll go back and read the definitions of above and beyond performance and say, "Is the work out of this park? Are they truly moving the needle? Is this superior quality?" And we really have to go back and remind the managers of what these overall ratings mean and look like, and then we carry on with our discussion.
So I think without HR there to put things in perspective and remind the groups... Because the managers, they are, they're super passionate, especially the individuals on their direct teams. They will die on the sword for some of these people, and we really have to try and bring the conversation back down to relative performance and what our standards are.
Callie Zipple:
I like that. And I think, like I said, it's got to be a really eye-opening experience for HR to be part of that conversation. So I appreciate you sharing that. I'm going to shift to a negative question about the process and it, I guess, depends on how you would approach this situation, whether or not it's seen as negative. But a lot of times when you go through this talent calibration process, you identify low performers just by nature of the process, right? You've identifying obviously really high performers and marks that other teams and employees should be reaching for, but you also identify people who are just not ever going to get there, right? So how important is it, as managers and HR, to take action on those low performers to prove to other managers and employees that this process is working?
Logan Wallick:
Yep. So I think that's perfect way to put it, to prove that it's actually working and it's the only way to fully round out the talent calibration process, because employees get their overall ratings when they meet with their manager. And we don't actually share our development map positions directly with the employee. We share a broad overall analysis, but we don't share individual map positions as of yet. I think someday we'll probably get there and it's definitely something we talk about often, especially as a people and culture team, but we aren't there just yet.
But in regards to the low performers, we have two ratings. It does not meet expectations and a needs improvement that we automatically begin tracking and implementing action plans to be put in place for anybody in those two ratings. So the overall rating falls in one of those two.
The HR business partners out in the regions work with the managers to develop those action plans, and we actually follow up twice a month. We follow up at the middle of the month and at the end of the month on progress towards those action plans. And I think, again, that just shows that the managers one, are bought in and number two, if you are a high performer, it shows that we're not just going to let the low performers roll with the tide and hang out at and be a part of the organization.
So I can say that last year we had a lot of positive results. Some of these things, again, with it being a new process, I think the managers hadn't had the conversations and the conversation of a needs improvement, or it does not meet the expectations, went a long way with the employees and we saw a lot of improvement. So those action plans lasted anywhere from a 30 day mark to a 90 day mark. And once we had the follow up finished, then we got more towards a performance improvement plan or something like that. But very happy to say that a lot of them didn't even get to that point, and it was really about the conversation with those low performers and the managers developing a plan to bring them to where they needed to be.
Callie Zipple:
And I think sometimes those conversations help the managers a little bit more than it helps the employees, because I've been part of... We call them PIP. I've been part of PIP conversations where these employees are sitting there and saying, "I didn't even know that this was expected of me." So just to help them understand expectations, and performance measures, and things like that usually helps them become a better performer just knowing what they're going to be graded on or rated on or whatever by their manager is usually a great conversation to at least start with.
Logan Wallick:
The manager's buy in is huge there too. I mean, I think it shows the employee that the manager's committed to their success. So it works out well for both.
Callie Zipple:
And I'll spin this conversation into the positive too, right? If you're going through your conversation and you've got a bunch of managers in the room and they all agree that this one person over here is a stellar performer, you better make sure that you are making that employee aware of the way people think of them in the organization. That they are a high performer, and if you can, throw them some money to make sure that they know that they are highly valued or at least look at their salary and make sure that they're being paid appropriately.
So I think that comes out of these conversations too. Who are the high performers and are we making sure that they're aware of that?
Logan Wallick:
Yep, absolutely.
Callie Zipple:
Those are all the questions that I have for you, Logan. Is there anything else you want to share about this process or little nuggets that you've realized along the way for our listeners?
Logan Wallick:
Just like you said, the pilot programs work. It's a long process, and I think looking at your individual organization and how you think employees and managers are going to react is what you really need to plan for in making it successful. It's been a huge culture shift. It's been three years. And, like I said, we're not there yet, but we're definitely well on our way. And I think with each year... The managers came in this year really excited and knew what was expected of them, whereas last year they were trained on it, but you can only train so much. So it gets a lot easier as you go, and like I said, well worth it. I think we've seen a lot of improved performance and much clearer expectations for our teams.
Callie Zipple:
I like that. And the only thing I would add obviously is the last question we talked about, right? If there are actions that you have to take that come as a result of this process, make sure that you take them. Otherwise, it'll be difficult to get everybody in a room again the following year, knowing that you're just wasting a bunch of time having conversations and nothing's actually going to happen as a result. So that's the only thing I would add.
But Logan, again, thank you for being here. If people want to reach out and learn a little bit more about your process that you're doing, how can they connect with you?
Logan Wallick:
Absolutely. So my email is LWallick@suffolk.com. So L-W-A-L-L-I-C-K@Suffolk, S-U-F-F-O-L-k.com and be happy to connect on LinkedIn as well. I'm out there as well.
Callie Zipple:
Super. And again, listeners, if you want to connect with me [inaudible 00:25:46] LinkedIn or Twitter and Instagram @ShermCallieZ. Feel free to go out to our sherm.org/honest HR website. We allow for you to subscribe to updates with new episodes and things like that on that website. So have a visit out there as well. Again, thank you for coming out. Logan, thank you for being here and we will see you next week for another episode of Honest HR.