<p>Gary Ware is a corporate facilitator, professional speaker and creative catalyst. In this episode, Honest HR host Wendy Fong and Gary discuss the power of adopting a mindset of creative play and how it can help you achieve greater performance, resilience and collaboration at work. <br /><br />On Thursday February 11th at 10:00 a.m. PT / 1:00 p.m. ET, he’ll be speaking at SHRM Northern California’s virtual event Play for Innovation, Creativity and Joy in the Workplace. <a href="https://www.shrmnorcal.org/events/event-description?CalendarEventKey=e877f68a-56fe-42ce-b61a-f292827e5145&CommunityKey=847ebd24-23ff-4472-9204-0b8c2d47c014&Home=%2fevents%2fcalendar">Learn more and register online</a>.<br /><br />Learn more about Gary at <a href="https://www.breakthroughplay.com/">breakthroughplay.com</a>.<br /><br />Watch <a href="https://www.ted.com/talks/gary_ware_how_play_saved_my_life">Gary’s TED Talk</a> How Play Saved My Life<br /><br />EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING<br /><br />Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All you have to do is listen to a full mini-series to earn PDCs! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast recording itself.</p>
Gary Ware is a corporate facilitator, professional speaker and creative catalyst. In this episode, Honest HR host Wendy Fong and Gary discuss the power of adopting a mindset of creative play and how it can help you achieve greater performance, resilience and collaboration at work.
On Thursday February 11th at 10:00 a.m. PT / 1:00 p.m. ET, he’ll be speaking at SHRM Northern California’s virtual event Play for Innovation, Creativity and Joy in the Workplace. Learn more and register online.
Learn more about Gary at breakthroughplay.com.
Watch Gary’s TED Talk How Play Saved My Life
EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING
Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All you have to do is listen to a full mini-series to earn PDCs! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast recording itself.
Amber Clayton:
Welcome to the Honest HR podcast, the show that explores the uncomfortable, complicated, and sometimes wonderful truths of the workplace.
Wendy Fong:
We're here to have honest conversations, giving you the good, the bad, and the ugly side of HR. Nothing is off the table. This is a SHRM podcast approved to provide SHRM-CP and SHRM-SCP re-Certification PDCs. Details will be provided inside each qualifying episode. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
And I'm Gloria Sinclair Miller. And we are your three hosts.
Wendy Fong:
[foreign language 00:00:35]. Hello, everyone, and welcome back listeners, and welcome to anyone who is listening for the very first time. I'm your host, Wendy Fong, Membership Engagement Senior Specialist for SHRM and the SHRM Northern California Community. Today, I am so excited to introduce our guest. Gary Ware is a corporate facilitator, keynote speaker, certified coach, and self-proclaimed creative catalyst. Gary has over 14 years of experience in the corporate world holding various leadership positions. Gary also comes with nearly a decade of experience as a performer in improv theater. After experiencing burnout in his pursuit for success and happiness, he realized that what was missing was play. Committing to a life of play is what led Gary to discover his passion for facilitating. Gary uses the power of applied improvisation and other playful methods to assist people in unlocking creativity, confidence, and better communication. When Gary isn't leading workshops or speaking, you can find him learning magic, or off on an adventure with his wife, Courtney and son, Garrett. Welcome to Honest HR, Gary.
Gary Ware:
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Wendy Fong:
Absolutely. So what is a creative catalyst that you mentioned in your bio? I'm definitely interested and it sounds like a lot of fun.
Gary Ware:
Yeah. So the title that I heard someone else use, and I was thinking about my body of work and I'm like, "Oh, I do the same thing," is I help essentially instigate creativity out of people. I like to consider myself to spark on your creative journey because, as sad as this may sound, a lot of working professionals don't think that they're creative. But if we really break down what creativity is, we all are creative in some way, shape or form. And it's my mission to bring that out of you.
Wendy Fong:
I love that. I love that. I think I read an article where it said, there's different ways that are, we as people need to relax and rest and express ourselves. And it said that creativity was one of those ways that it's just part of the human experience. We just need to express ourselves to be authentic to ourselves, to be feel real and alive, whatever that looks like, right? It could be anything, it could be writing, theater, speaking, helping others.
Gary Ware:
Agreed. And that's one of the things why creativity seems so elusive, because when you think about creativity, a lot of times people go into artistic ability, and they look at artists or they look at performers and they say, "That's creative. I'm not that. So I'm probably not creative." In fact, NASA did a study where they took a group of kindergartners, and then they put them through this bad area of creative tests to measure their ability to think in a creative way, diversion thinking. And they found that of that cohort of kindergartners 90 to 95% of them had genius levels of creativity.
Wendy Fong:
Wow.
Gary Ware:
Yeah. And they followed that cohort all the way through 18. This is the surprising fact, by the time that they were 18, that same cohort, only 3% showed signs of genius level of creativity.
Wendy Fong:
Wow. That's so drastic. Oh, I wonder if they did the tests on adults.
Gary Ware:
Well, and that's the thing. So it keeps going down, and it's the sad but positive thing is that it's mostly mindset, that decrease happened around 12, 13. That's when, for the first time, people were starting to look at their peers and starting to see talents emerge, and then they start to compare. That's creative. What I did was not creative. They are therefore creative. I am not. And the interesting thing is that, you know how they say, seeing is believing, and that's not always true as someone who practices magic, but believing is seen. So if you have this belief that you're not creative, you are going to go around and start to see evidence of where you're not creative, and that's going to be your internal narrative. And then, you're just not going to be creative and you're not going to practice it.
Creativity is a muscle. And when it's worked on just like any muscle, you can get better at it. So that's the beauty, and that's why I love considering myself a creativity catalyst in that I want to unlock all of our abilities to be creative that are there. It just may be a little atrophied, but having the ability to be creative is one of those things that it helps as far as our mental health, our wellbeing, fulfillment, joy. But it also, bringing it back to the work environment, it helps us be adaptive. It helps us be more resilient.
Wendy Fong:
I love that. It's something, like you said, it's a muscle, we could work on it. It's not something we're born with necessarily that it's something that we can learn and that we could pick up at any time. So why do you think this belief falls off as we get older? You did mention peers and comparing ourself to others, but what else is happening there? I'd love to get into the psychology of it.
Gary Ware:
Yeah. Well, the main thing is, like I said, it's mindset, the book, What to Say When You Talk to Your Self, but it's an amazing book, and it talks about our mental self talk. And in that book, the author said, "By the time we're 18, we have heard the word no, 160,000 times."
Wendy Fong:
Wow.
Gary Ware:
And things that are repeated tend to stick. So if you hear, no, no, no. Over and over again, that is going to start to become your narrative. Also, things that get in the way of creativity, and this is talked about in the book, Primed to Perform by Neel Doshi and Lindsay McGregor. They say that we have these innate mindsets that help us perform at top levels. And there are some things that on the surface may help perform tactically, but it doesn't help you perform in an adaptive or creative way, and that is emotional pressure. So think about being on the job and you don't want to make a mistake, because if you make a mistake you may look bad, or whatever the case may be.
So that emotional pressure is going to get you to play safe. It's not going to get you to be creative, especially when faced with a challenging situation. Also, we have inertia, inertia essentially states, in the work environment you've been there and you did it the day before, and it's just how it is. And so in some jobs or whatnot, you just get to this state of just like, "I'm just going through the motions." And again, just going through the motions and you're not stimulated in the right ways, your creativity is going to wane, because again, you're not working on it.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. So we were just talking right before the podcast how we both have young children, your son is almost four and I have a 10 year old daughter, and it's when I read all these parenting tips. It's just crazy how much we say no, as soon as they're, I don't know, even when they're one years old, two years old. It starts very young, just the no, and it's ingrained in us as children, as we're growing up. I will definitely check out those books. They definitely sound interesting. Back to creativity. So how can an individual unlock their creativity? If you feel like, "Oh, I'm horrible at dancing," or, "I can't sing. I'm not an artist." What does that creativity look like? And how can I slowly find that within myself?
Gary Ware:
Yes. So first and foremost, it's defining, what is creativity? Like I said earlier, creativity is closely linked to artistic ability. I've done hundreds of workshops where I ask that same question, what is creativity? What is creativity to you? And the participants, they say, being able to paint, or dance, or anything like that, and yes, that is a form of creativity. However, when you look up the definition of creativity, the definition of creativity is basically problem solving, being able to problem solve in a new and novel way. And like I said earlier, creativity is a muscle and any muscle with consistent work, you can get better at it. And so if you are at a place where in your career, or whatever the case may be, and you're being forced to be innovative, or you're being forced to be able to think on your feet.
As of this recording, we're in a global pandemic and I don't know about you, but I don't think anyone when they were going into the year 2020, imagine that they're going to be where we are now. And it required a lot of creative thinking. It required a lot of adaptability. So when you have that mindset of creativity is just problem solving. That's the first thing. And that enables you, like I said, believing is seen. So once you have that belief that, "Oh, it's just solving problems." Well, then you can start to see all of the ways that you've already been creative and it will give you that spark to do it more often.
Wendy Fong:
Do you think also the environment you're in plays a factor? So it's also, it sounds like your internal self talk, right? Do you yourself have the mindset, the belief that you can be creative, or do this action but also the environment you in? Like you mentioned, we're in the pandemic, time of this recording, or say you're in your work environment. What if the work environment is not a safe place? Or what does environment need to look like in order for you to be creative?
Gary Ware:
Yes. And I'm so glad that you brought that up, Wendy, because environment plays a key role in this as well, because at the end of the day we are creatures of habit. And we have some of these core fears that are ingrained in our DNA, and one of them is to not get left by the pack. We are creatures that thrive in communities. And just how we all know emotions are contagious, you can watch a YouTube video or a movie that's so inspiring, and at the end of it, you just feel just so moved. Some of the things that come to mind to me is watching old sports movies about how the underdog persevered. And then at the end, you just sometimes are moved to tears, again, it's all contagious.
And so if you're in an environment where it doesn't feel safe to be creative. Like I said, in the book, Primed to Perform, one of the motivators, and it's actually a detractor for creativity, is emotional pressure. So if there's a lot of pressure on you to not make mistakes while you're going to be less likely to be creative, because in order to be creative, you have to make mistakes. If you think about anything that was innovative, or anything that blew us away, it wasn't perfect out of the get go. Thomas Edison said, "I didn't make a mistake. I just found a thousand ways that didn't work." So if you're in that environment that puts too much pressure on you to get things right, or if someone has made a mistake and they were publicly within the group chastise because of that, you're going to be less likely to want to be creative.
Wendy Fong:
Definitely. Well, let's go back a little bit. In your bio you mentioned your story, and I love your story, I've heard it a few times. But I would love for you to share with our listeners how you came to bring more play into your life to be a creative catalyst, and your story, and your experience in the corporate world.
Gary Ware:
Yes. But one of the things once I got out of university was I'm going to be a marketer, a digital marketer specifically, that was my specialty in college, marketing communications. And they say the American dream, or that thing of here's these check marks that was put out to us that if you reach these milestones, you can consider your life as success. And one of them, get a good job, make good money. So that begins what I set out to do. And it was interesting, because I did a TED Talk on this two years ago where I did this story and I talked about how play saved my life. And in that TED talk, I talked about when I was younger I was the class clown, I was the one that was always goofing off. And my dad instilled some wisdom in me that allowed me to get through structured environments like school, but it started to fail me when I got into my professional career. And it was, "Gary, you can play when the work is done."
And because I was a very playful person by nature, and I love playing. That was the thing that motivated me to get my work done is so I can play and have that release. Well, fast forward, I'm in my professional career, I'm moving up, I'm hitting all those milestones, but yet I feel broken, on paper, I felt like I was a success. However, I did not personally feel like I was a success because I didn't feel fulfilled. I had my dream job, but yet I was always tired. I really wasn't enjoying it as much as I could, and I didn't know why. And again, I had that mindset of, "Well, Gary, you can play when the work is done." And as we all know, the work is never done. There's to-do lists that are miles long, there's emails, there's always something to do. And I actually read a stat recently that because of the pandemic and working from home, people are working up to eight more hours a week.
Wendy Fong:
That's too long.
Gary Ware:
Right? If you think about it, eight more hours a week, and it's because you think, "Well, I don't have a commute," and there isn't that clear boundary between work and home. And because that usually was separated with a commute, or something like that. And if you think about rewind like 20, 30, 40 years ago, because we didn't have the technology that we had now, we had those clear delineations and we were able to play more because, if anyone, I may be dating myself. But The Flintstones cartoon in the beginning, Fred Flintstone, here's the bell that signifies his work is done. And he stops what he's doing immediately and jumps into his prehistoric car and goes home, and he is super happy. And again, that was the mindset of everyone. Leisure was something that came because there was a clear delineation between work and then home.
So you had more time to spend with family, you had more time to "play." but because of the technology that was designed to make our lives easier, it actually, in my opinion, made things more complicated. And in my story, I found myself working all the time. I found myself tethered to my device answering emails at all areas of the night. And it wasn't until I took an improv class that I had that awakening that, wait a second, that was play. That was play for me. And it started again to be that catalyst that changed my belief structure about what does it mean to play and work. And as I said in the beginning, believe in a scene. And once I started to believe that, "Oh, I can make space for play and be productive," and in fact it actually invigorates me more. I started making more space for that in my life.
Wendy Fong:
Everyone should watch that TED talk, by the way, it's called, How Play Saved Your Life. And you filmed it in July of 2019, and it's just on YouTube. So anyone could search it up on YouTube. We'll put in the show notes as well. But I love your story. And the advice from your dad that you talked about how he said, "There's a time for play and a time for work," I quote you, and, "You play when your work is done," like you mentioned. And I feel that was the message that I had growing up too. I totally resonated with that. And it's very strong message in our society that play and work are these two separate things. Oil and water, they can't mix, they have to be separate. And also you talk about technology too. It's t's hard to disconnect. It's such a distraction.
I am off of work and I find myself still looking on my phone, not necessarily for work things, but there's just so many apps like, "Oh, there's Instagram, and there's my email, and who's texting me now." And I have to catch myself when I get pulled in and distracted on my phone to really just be present with my family. Okay. You put the phone down. Sometimes, I tell myself, "Okay, by 8:00 I need to not touch my phone at all." Whether it's putting it on airplane modes, you don't hear the little dings, the little notifications. Definitely at mealtime, my daughter and I try to have, we have dinner or lunch together, and we don't have phones at the table. It's definitely a rule for us too. It's so easy to get distracted by technology.
Gary Ware:
Agreed. Yeah. And it's one of those things when they first came out, again, they were designed to solve a problem. But we didn't know what we didn't know, and they have creeped into our unconscious programming. So if you think about our bodies and ourselves as a super computer, because let's be honest, we are all remarkable being and the things that we are capable of doing is so amazing. And like a super computer, super computers are just computers in general have programs that run automatically. We have a program called breathing, and I don't know about you, but I don't really think about breathing. It just happens. Once we form a habit, because our brain's number one job is to keep you alive. It does not require as much energy to do it. So if you think about some complex things that we do like driving. I know we don't drive a lot now, as we are recording this during global pandemic.
But if you know how to drive, and if you've driven a car, think about when you first learned how to do that. It was probably really awkward. It probably required a lot of concentration. But with repeated action, you get to the point where you can probably drive, and then you blink and you're at a location like, "Wow. How did I get here?" Again, because your unconscious programming is running in the background and it's doing that, and so with the technology that we have. Because we have been with the smartphones for as long as we have, and we maybe once started as like, "Oh, I need to check this," and it became this habit. Sometimes you look down at your device or something like that, and you're like, "Why am I here? Why am I in this loop?" And especially when stress gets involved.
And now we're starting to operate on our primal instincts, and then we find ourself in this loop. And then, it can be frustrating. And in order to break that you need to be intentional. So I love, Wendy, that you mentioned at the dinner table, you start to set these intentions of, we want to connect. And so in order to connect, we need to disconnect and we need to set our phones aside. And that again, it's starting to retrain ourselves. And it's interesting because these habits are so normalized that it's seen to the people who don't subscribe to them of being on call 24/7, they're seen as rebels.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. It's almost like in our society, it's a badge of honor to always be busy. I almost feel when I set the boundary of like, "Okay. I'm not checking my emails or anything past 5:00, pushing it 6:00," or even my Slack channel messages or my work text messages. I just feel I'm not working as hard as my other coworkers like, "Is something wrong with me? Why am I not working as hard?" Or even when I'm walking around the Financial District, Downtown San Francisco, or if you're on public transit like BART, everyone's on their phones, and no one's not on their phone. So I almost feel left out like, "Do I need to take out my phone too? And look on my phone. There must be something really important I need to look at," because no one's just sitting there having a conversation, or just daydreaming, right? Just sitting there and daydreaming, or just paying attention to whatever you're doing, like you're walking down the street. Maybe you should just focus on walking down the street and taking in your environment.
Gary Ware:
Yeah. Agreed. So for those who are listening, if you resonate with any of those statements and you want to do something different. Because this is the thing, we only have one life and I've known a number of people, it's very unfortunate, who've had serious health issues as a result of stress. If you look at some of the research out there, it shows that a large percentage of people are in amazing jobs on paper, but feel unfulfilled, or reporting feeling more stressed out than ever before. This is something the optimist in me, I feel its something that can be worked on and achieved. But it does require some things that go against the grain of what society deems as normal. And it's interesting because that's the thing, we want to fit in. We want to feel we belong.
And when the norm is that you are always on call and you're not, then you feel something's wrong. But it's interesting, if you think, again, back maybe 20, 30 years, the only people that were always on call were doctors and drug dealers. No one else was required to be on call like that. And it just something that started as maybe a one time thing, but then it became an ongoing thing. And the problem is our nervous system, it's called the sympathetic nervous system, and that's our flight or freeze. It was not designed to be on all the time. I love video games. And I like to use this analogy when I'm playing a race car video game, they have this thing called turbo, and turbo gives you a little boost. But that boost, there's a little bar, and once it goes away, you have to let it come back.
And I feel we have been activating our sympathetic nervous system and it's always on, and it is doing us a disservice, because we're not giving it a chance to rest. The opposite of the sympathetic nervous system is the parasympathetic nervous system, and that is our rest and digest. And that is what's essential to build our immune system. That's essential to help us reduce our blood pressure so that we can work harder, faster, and be more creative. But we can't do that if we're tied to our devices, if we are working all the time. And again, going back to what our parents have filled it with us of, work hard and play when the work is done.
In my studies, I've learned that there are different ways of seeing play. And most people see plays as a frivolous activity that is usually meant to cause mischief, but that is one of many different types of play. And I started using the term purposeful play, and with purposeful play it's intentional. And if play is too triggering for you, maybe use the word self-care, or I like to call powering up. And it's engaging in an act that as we're using our playful nature, but it's allowing you to do something else, like feel better about yourself, reduce stress, help you so that you can be more productive. Because if you look under the surface of when you are doing these activities, it's more than just goofing off, or daydreaming, or whatever. Your body is producing the neurochemicals that are going to be essential for creative activity that's going to be essential for connection, essential for thriving.
Your body is producing dopamine, which is creativity and focus, is also producing oxytocin, serotonin, which is trust and belonging, and endorphins, which, again, is also focus. And as a way to remember that, I call it DOSE, D-O-S-E, that's the acronym for Dopamine, Oxytocin, Serotonin, and Endorphins. And if you are feeling sluggish during your workday, instead of maybe getting coffee, or maybe scrolling through social media, which is probably, like I said earlier, going to have the adverse effect and make you feel more stressed. What if you engage in an activity that is playful in nature, and then time box it, and then when you're done, notice how you feel then?
Wendy Fong:
Well, and especially now, I mean this past year, the current state that we're in, the stakes are even higher in terms of our stress and how we feel. I feel like I'm constantly stressed all the time, like when I leave the house, or how my friends and family are doing, and how their health is going, and working, and having my daughter next to me and making sure she's not watching Netflix or YouTube, which I have caught her doing many times. So there's even more stress than ever before. So how can we start to take those steps to set those intentions and create those healthier habits?
Gary Ware:
Yes. So first and foremost, if you feel like it's a challenge to even want to do something that is joyful, you're not alone because this is the paradox. I mentioned all the benefits of play and how it can help. However, when we are in a stress state, we don't want to play. And I'll tell you a quick story that really helped me understand this, because all animals, mammals specifically, we use play throughout our whole life. We're called neotenous creatures, and that we retain our juvenile features even into adulthood. And all mammals play as a way to learn, as a way to connect. And so I learned that and I was like, "Oh, so all mammals play." And again, you can do a simple YouTube search and you will find all these animals playing. And then I learned that, well, you don't play when you're stressed, because, again, you need to protect yourself because when you're playing, it's a very vulnerable state, you're open to attack because you're so present.
However, it is used to fuel you. So this was before my son was born. At the time we had two dogs, Phyllis and Daphne, and Daphne is a part pug, part Chihuahua. So she looks like a big bean burrito. She jumped off the bed and she broke her paw, and so we had to get her a cast. And by doing that, it immobilized her paw so that she can heal, but it stressed her out because she didn't have her full range of motion. Daphne by nature is super playful. She will come up and lick you, and she will jump and she wants to play. She's the super playful puppy, but she does have the Chihuahua side. So she'll let you know when things are up. Anyways, when she came home, she started nipping at Phyllis, the other dog.
And I can tell she was very stressed. And again, think about it, if you are used to being able to do something a certain way. And then all of a sudden, now you are essentially immobilized. And because dogs are animals just like all of us, she's feeling threatened like, "Oh, I can't run as fast. I can't jump. I can't do all these things." And so she was in a stress like state, and for the eight weeks while she was in a cast, she was not the same. So much so that we were starting to get worried. My wife was pregnant with my son and she was like, "Oh no, is this how she's going to be? Is this her new personality? Should we be worried about our son when he gets here?"
Wendy Fong:
It was unexpected change that happened in her life and she wasn't prepared for it.
Gary Ware:
She wasn't prepared for it. And so again, so there's a lot of sympathy there. That's just, again, what happens with stress, but humans, unlike animals, we have the ability to think in reason. So getting to the end of the story, we thought, "Is this Daphne?" And then she got her cast off and brought her home. And after the anesthesia wore off, because they had to sedate her to give her x-ray and stuff like that. We looked at her, we were like, "All right. What's going to happen?" And she realized where she was. She looked down at her paw and there wasn't a cast, and like that, she was back to normal. She was jumping, and running, and looking, and she was Daphne again. So the stressor left, and then she was able to play.
And so it really showed me like, yes, animals that are stressed don't want to play. But us humans, we have the ability to think in reason. And it's unfortunate, the stress that we're in, this stress could go on for a long time. And again, our default programming is, well, when you're stressed, you don't play, you don't do these things. Well, the problem with that is that it's depleting our immune system, which is something that we need to have high amounts of given that we're in a global pandemic. It is causing other stress related illnesses and injuries. And so we have to have an intervention with ourselves. And because we have such sophisticated brains, we have the ability to start to think about the future and start to realize like, all right, what is going on now is not always going to be that way.
I'm being optimistic. Again, we don't know. We don't know what we don't know. However, I do know that when I am playing, when I am doing those things that bring with me joy, I feel more optimistic. I'm able to be creative, I'm able to be adaptive. So in order to reap these benefits, I learned this from a mentor of mine, her name is Gwen Gordon. She calls it the Seven Paths to Play to go from seeing the world as a approving ground, and a battleground to seeing the world as a playground of possibilities. And one of that is to schedule play, is to, like we said, at the top of the show, make time for things that bring you joy. And the other thing, and this is important, we talked about this as well, is how can you create an environment that has that play like abilities. A wise woman once said, "For every job that must be done, you find the element of fun and, snap, the job's a game."
And that wise woman was Mary Poppins, if you didn't recognize that quote. But she said, how can you make that job, make it a game, add some playful elements. And that's where I go into element design or environment design. And especially since we're in a pandemic, and we're probably not in the environments that we're used to. How can we maybe add a splash of color to our environment? How can we maybe play some music? And stuff like that, again, to start to activate the parasympathetic nervous system, that's going to reduce stress. So those are two tips. The big thing is being intentional, like you said, because if we were left to our own devices, our automatic programming, we would not play right now. And it will be at our own peril.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. It's interesting you talk about our stress, and how the mind and body connection is so closely related. When we're stressed, it does trigger our immune system. I love my job, but it was a very stressful time last January, multiple things going on, too many things going on, not getting enough sleep, right? Not eating right, and just thinking about work all the time. There wasn't enough time to relax, and no downtime or self care, no time for play. And it triggered immune response to me where I started experiencing hypothyroidism. And so all this symptoms with that of being tired all the time, sluggish, I wasn't as sharp, and my memory wasn't as good as it used to be. And I had to go to a doctor and work through all of that, but definitely stress can trigger responses in your body and impact your health. So it's very important to be aware, to take care of your mind and your body, because it's all connected.
Gary Ware:
Agreed. Yes, it is all connected.
Wendy Fong:
I would love for you to talk more about that day that you went to that improv class, and what was that triggering moment for you, that light switch, right? Where you said, "Wait. I need more of this in my life."
Gary Ware:
I signed up for the class and almost didn't go. Isn't it funny that when there's something that scares you, and it may be the best thing for you, things show up. And so that day the classes was on a Monday, and it was one of those days where I was like, "Oh, maybe I should try next time, because I got a lot of work to do," but I heard his voice in my head, that was my thought. So I was like, "You know what, I'm going to go." And I got there just in time, I stepped into this theater, and there were 15 other people just like myself. I took a class in January. So a lot of people was like, there were bucket list kick the year off sort of thing. Again, a majority of them were just like me, just professionals, had no aspirations to be in theater. And something magical happened in that first class, and then in those seven other classes.
For the duration of the class, which was two hours at a time, I was completely focused. I didn't think about my to-do list. I didn't think about any of the stresses that I had going on in work and life, and we essentially played. We played these games that... The whole thing about improv classes, you're being trained to be able to get onto a stage and do all these things. And so the games had hidden meanings. They were designed to teach us how to listen better, how to create with the group. But at the end of the day, I left that first class feeling so invigorated. I walked into it feeling depleted and tired, and I left feeling excited. And almost like I drank a cup of coffee, no joke, it felt like that.
And the cool thing is I went to work that next Tuesday, and the next Tuesday was one of the better days I had in a long time. And I just shrugged it off as just like, "Oh, here's what it is." The cool thing is, I was excited for improv again. That Sunday night I was thinking about like, "Oh wow, tomorrow's improv." Super excited, went to the next class, again, same thing. And then, I started bringing some of these games to my team because as a newer leader, I was looking for, again, ways to engage my team. And I started seeing the benefits of these games, not just to help people be better on stage, but also help people in the work environment. Because these things that we were developing, like the ability to think critically, to think to collaborate in a group, to be playful, to be creative, to essentially have empathy, and support your fellow ensemble member were traits I felt translated very well to the work environment.
And so I was hooked, and I started playing these games with my team and we started connecting better. We started trusting each other more and we started essentially taking bigger risks, but they're calculated. And we made mistakes but we owned it, and we created that psychological safety. And I was like, "Wow. This is amazing." And so I found my play through improv, and I started bringing that gift to my team. And then pretty soon I was like known as the improv person like, "Hey, can you bring some improv games to this event and to this event?" And that was the seed that got me on this journey where I am now.
Wendy Fong:
Sounds like we all need to take an improv class right now.
Gary Ware:
I agree. I agree.
Wendy Fong:
And that's so important what you mentioned about developing that psychological safety within your team, right? Because isn't that what we all desire to have in our workplace? We want support from our managers and colleagues. We want trust. We want to be able to be our authentic selves, and have empathy and compassion, and just connect on a human level. And to feel those things and to build that rapport, it brings innovation. It brings the ability to think critically, like you mentioned. I mean, how can we bring this more into the workplace, this play?
Gary Ware:
Yeah. Like I said before, how can you design for a playful environment? So in listening to what I'm saying, and you're like, "Yeah. We need to bring more play." And even in a virtual environment, I've been testing this over the last eight to nine months. It still works. You have to be intentional, and you have to be open to seeing things differently. It is possible. And this is what I call purposeful play. Think about different scenarios. So take one, that is pretty common since a lot of these interactions take place on video. The typical Zoom introduction, when a meeting kicks off is like, "Oh, hi. Are you there? Can you hear me?" And we take that time for granted where that time could be best spent. Like you said, Wendy, creating that psychological safety and giving the team that DOSE so that they can be more productive and more focused during the time together.
And so when, yes, you're going to have those moments of like, "All right. What's going on?" But for people who are leading these meetings, imagine if you just took a moment to check in. And I call this game red light, green light. And again, it's very simple, but it has such an amazing impact where I tell people, when I'm facilitating things, right before we kicking off. Again, just as a way to check in and see where everyone is, is say, "All right. Take a moment and think about where you are right now. Let's just be honest. How are you feeling? And update your name to either red, yellow, or green." Green means, I'm good to go, feeling great, energized, let's go. Yellow means, I'm getting there, it's one of those days but I'm not 100 %perfect, but I'm not falling off a cliff. Or red is like, I may be struggling.
And again, that simple thing of doing that, and having everyone look around and acknowledging where people are, is just realizing that we all are coming from different places. And then it starts to create that empathy. It starts to create that serotonin, that oxytocin of, I see you, you see me. And again, that's a great way of checking in. And then, you can be mindful as you're going through your meeting of like, "Oh, you know what, Jane, she's yellow right now. Maybe I need to ask, is there something I can do to support?" So that's, again, a good way to kick off a meeting, allows us to check in. And it's very simple, but it has such a big impact.
Wendy Fong:
That's a great idea to try, and it only takes a few minutes, right? It takes a few minutes, but it just makes a huge impact on how you set the tone for the rest of the meeting. And also, building up that connection with your team for the long term.
Gary Ware:
And so I have a list of those games. Again, it can be done in person or in video, but they all have specific impacts if you want to be creative. So most people, they tell their teams, "Hey, yeah, we need you to be innovative. We need you to think outside of the box, and all that stuff," but yet we don't set up an environment where that can happen. Because again, how you see things is how you see things. And unless you're willing to change the way that you look at things, the things that you look at aren't going to change. And so as a way to prime people, to be open to seeing things differently, again, this is a very simple game that primes the brain to think of something differently.
And this is a game called other uses. And again, this one takes a little bit more time, You can modify it as necessary. But I tell everyone to find an object, on your desk, something within reach, and show the camera. And then, I pick someone and like, for example, say someone holds up a remote control, and so then we go around and around the group and we say, "What else could that be?" And then of course you get the people that are very obvious and they like, "Well, it's a remote control. So that can be a controller for something else." I'm like, "All right, cool." Diversion thinking we're working on creativity, "What if it was a surfboard for your treasure troll? Or a diving board? Or what if it's a shovel?" Again, trying to get us to think differently, bring back that, I like to call it being childlike, not childish. But it gets your brain thinking about things other than what they are.
And that fun activity, and one, it gives people permission to just be right, whatever you say is going to be right. When was the last time you got permission to just, "Hey, you know what, say what's on your mind. We're not going to judge. We're going to come from a place non-judgment awareness," that doesn't happen that often. Sometimes it's like the unspoken rule, but again, if you don't feel safe, you're not going to do that. This is actually giving people permission to be silly. And then, when you need to be creative, because you've primed yourself, now you are already warmed up for that.
And so we might do one or two rounds depending on how many people. If it's a smaller group, maybe we go around with everyone's thing. But you could just, again, pick one or two things. If you're the facilitator, you can hold something up and have everyone go around. And if it's a large group, you don't have to necessarily have people say it out loud, they can put it in the chat. But the thing is, everyone is starting to think differently.
Wendy Fong:
I love that. And I love that you can do it virtually too, because virtually is I mean, it's not the same as in person, yet, how can we still connect. It's almost like an extra layer that we have to break through to connect even deeper with people, because there's that computer screen in front of us. So how do we break through to that and connect with people more, and bring that play into the workplace, into the meeting.
Gary Ware:
Yes, exactly.
Wendy Fong:
Okay. So I did watch another awesome YouTube of your talk from Creative Mornings in San Diego, everyone should have watch this as well, by the way. And I love what you said about how games or play have the potential to change the world, help us see things in a different perspective and come closer together. So how can they change the world?
Gary Ware:
Yeah. So in order to allow you to see this, I need everyone to think about a time that you played a game, especially when you were younger and sometimes as adults, we don't play in the purest form. But think about when you were younger and you were playing, whether it's a digital game, like a video game or sports, or it's a creative activity, or soul play, or something like that. Think about what was going through your mind. You were probably being creative. You were probably being accepting of other people, especially if it's a game that you're playing with someone else. When you're playing you essentially see the world in a low stakes environment. It's simulated. There's an amazing book called SuperBetter by researcher Jane McGonigal. And in that book, she talks about how play can help you be more resilient and things like that.
And that's where I got the inspiration for that, and I call it play plus. Because when you have a situation and you add a bit of play, it can change everything. Because the cool thing about play is, play is something that you have to be invited into. And when you're invited to play, and the research shows this, is that you suspend your current worldview for the rules of the game. And because your unconscious mind doesn't know the difference between dream and reality, with ongoing use you're going to actually start to see things differently. And there's a lot of studies and research that, for example, one that I really love, it was in Taiwan. Where they were curious on how they can help the generations connect, because the younger generations they're missing that mentorship. And then the older generations were feeling really lonely and isolated.
And I feel a lot of that's happening right now because of the global pandemic. But they arranged this study where the control group, they were just paired with someone and they said, "You have an hour a week. Do whatever you want. It can be anything, you just talk, you can watch TV. It doesn't matter." And then the experiment group, they had them do something very specific. They had them play the Nintendo Wii, and the Nintendo Wii is, if you're not familiar with that, that is the device that is very tactile. So instead of having a controller and bowling with buttons, you were actually physically going through the motions as you're bowling or playing tennis, and stuff like that. So they had them play Nintendo Wii together for an hour a week.
And both groups connected for a whole month, and then afterwards they did some follow-ups and they wanted to see what happened. And so with both groups, just by spending time together, they felt closer to the other person. All right, great. Yeah. That makes sense. You spend time with someone else, and if it's in a positive environment, because you are going to experiment experience dopamine and serotonin, you're going to start to trust the other person. Something really remarkable happened though with the group that played Wii together. Not only did they feel a greater affinity for the person that they started, that they were playing with, but they also saw a greater affinity to that group as a whole. So for the younger people, not only did they see that older person as someone that they can trust and that they liked. They would see other people like them and would trust them, because what was going on in their unconscious mind was, because their belief structure was challenged because they accepted the game.
In the rules of the game, it really challenged everything that they knew to be true, and it gave them this new reality. So when they saw other older people they like... Unconsciously, this is what's going on in their mind, they were like, "Well, I like this other older person. So I must like this older person." So again, play has the ability because it's considered a "simulation". It has a way to do such amazing things. So I call that play plus. So if you add play plus collaboration, you start to get innovation. And that is something that I was talking about in my creative morning talk about how play has the ability to change the world.
Wendy Fong:
And it literally activates a different part of your brain, which is crazy. So there's lots of science backing this up as well. What if someone doesn't want to play? When you host these workshops, do you ever find that one person that's like, "Oh no, this is not for me. I'm not going to play?"
Gary Ware:
There's usually that thing. And like I said before, yes, you can force someone to play, but they're not necessarily going to want to play. And so when I'm hosting my events, it is interesting because it is sometimes conflicting in that, like everyone's supposed to be there. And I respect people for where they are, and I say, "Look, this is an invitation to play. You're invited to step into this play space that we're all creating. It's a safe space. A space where we're going to suspend judgment for our time together and just connect." And yes, there are some people that come with arms crossed, or whatever the case may be. But the cool thing is those people, because they go along with it, they start playing the games, they start feeling good. These emotions are contagious.
When everyone else is playing and having fun, and there's that one person who's like a stick in the mud. And they start seeing the people around them, something about that starts to melt them and they start to like, "All right. You know what? I'm going to give it a shot." Again, I don't make a big scene out of it. I make sure that I'm checking in on them. But sometimes those people that in the beginning were the biggest skeptics end up being the biggest people having fun. And so it's one of those things, again, in my talk, I talk about the elements that help you be more likely to play, and rest is a big thing.
If you are tired, you're not going to have the energy to play. And sometimes, an act of rest, in my opinion is like play, because you may not think of it as play, but it is like, "You know what? I am engaging this because, just because, and it's going to help me feel better." And so sometimes just the act of resting gives you the energy.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah, absolutely. Because you have to take care of your body going back to that, you can be hungry, you can be thirsty. I know if I'm hungry, I'm really cranky.
Gary Ware:
Agreed.
Wendy Fong:
And that same mindset could be, I'm just thinking if you bring these games to your meeting, for example. What if you have that one coworker who doesn't want to participate? But it's so true, it's very contagious. Because we want to connect with people. It's just part of how we are built that we want community. Once everyone's laughing and playing, you want to join in the fun too. You don't want to be that kid left out of the sandbox, you want to feel like you belong.
Gary Ware:
Yes. Agreed. But I want people to feel like there is an opportunity to step in when they're ready, and I make that very clear. That I suspend my own judgment. I have no idea why it is, it may just be that they might be a little nervous. And that's one of the things with play is that when you start to play, because it's a very vulnerable experience where, especially when it's set up right, that you see other people being vulnerable and it gives you permission to be vulnerable. And then, you're being your true self and you're having fun, and it is all these great things. Sometimes with those people, just the fact that I tell them, "Look, I'm not going to force you to do something. I like to invite you to step outside your comfort zone, but you will not see me push you to do this."
And I feel like that permission for some people is exactly what they need, and then they start to loosen up. Because, again, I don't know about you, but I can think of many times when I felt embarrassed because someone made me do something, and then that maybe there was laughter and stuff like that. And maybe that's where people are coming from. Again, I have no idea, but I want to create a space where people feel like they can take that step.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. And everyone is on their own pace, right? We don't know where they're coming from, or how their day is going, or what they're going through. So yeah, absolutely. So if I'm just starting out in my career, well, a lot of our listeners may be more emerging professionals. So how can I be more playful at work yet still be taken seriously at my job. Seen as a hard worker, which is something I value a lot, but not be labeled as young, or inexperienced like, "Oh yeah, that's the young worker. Why are they playing games?" Or, "Why are they doing that?"
Gary Ware:
Yes. Again, if you're listening to this and you're like, "Wow, that's really cool." And you have that fear that you're going to be labeled as that juvenile person. Again, because, you're right, I cannot wait for the day where more people see play as more than just goofing off. Brene Brown talks about it in the qualities of, I think she called wholehearted beings. And when she first emerged in the research, she called it goofing off. And she said, "These people were goofing off," and then she said, "Oh, they're actually playing." And it was interesting because most people, again, they see play as something that is a waste of time. And so what I invite you to do is, one, sometimes you have to be that rebel. You have to be that person that is willing to do what is necessary for your own wellbeing.
But again, I don't say play and forget about your work. So this is something that is very intentional, just like how you would take a vitamin to get your nutrients, or you take an aspirin when you have a headache. This is something that is going to actually help you be more productive, and it requires intention. And so as a professional, I like to think that people that consider themselves emerging professionals, they tend to do things in very intentional ways. And so what I invite you to do is, how can you create an environment where that is part of your routine? And like I said towards the top, maybe that means scheduling five minutes.
And this is the other thing, again, it's going to take an act of courage, but once you start seeing the benefits, and then you start telling other people and sharing, you're probably going to give someone else permission to want to do it as well. And also read the book Primed to Perform, they talk about this all the time. In that people who see their work as play are 30% more productive, and they have a 30% greater chance of being innovative in solving problem. So it's a tough thing and it takes a lot of courage, but it's all about intention. It's all about doing things for very specific purpose.
Wendy Fong:
Absolutely. And we talked about this before when we're chit chatting earlier about setting time in your schedule, even if it's a little calendar reminder for to take time to play. I know I set in my calendar, okay, my lunch breaks, and time when I need to do continuing education. But why not set schedules in your calendar for time to play, almost like a brain break.
Gary Ware:
Agreed. Yeah. And that's the thing is that, and if you have a hard time calling it play, it's interesting. So in the workshops that I do, the companies that get it they're like, "Oh yeah. Yeah. We're going to have this play break. We're going to do a play shop." For other companies, it's learning and development. If you need to adjust the name, it's all good, whatever suits you, whatever is going to help you get that intended outcome. Please do that. To some people, it's self-care. But this is the thing. And that's why I talk about the science. There's a lot of science that showcases the benefits for this. But I will give you this warning in that, in the book SuperBetter by Jane McGonigal, she talks about this.
So before embarking on that journey of trying to understand the benefits of play, she saw nothing but research that suggested that plays detrimental to your health and to your socialization, wellbeing, and stuff like that. And it's true. There is a lot of research that show both, and it's such a paradox. And she found looking at both sets of research, the one thing that was different from the people that got the benefits of play, that helped them thrive. To the people that didn't get the benefits of play, and it actually was a detriment, was their mindset in that the reason why you're using play is to help you in some way, shape or form. Help you connect with other people, help you rejuvenate yourself, help you learn, then you're going to reap the benefits.
However, just like with overeating, or over exercising, or something like that. If your reason for doing it is because you can't handle what's in front of you. So for example, there is something that you know you need to take care of, and you don't want to do it. And so instead of doing it, you play, well, then that's going to become your pattern. Where tough things come up and you are using as a distraction, well, then it's not going to work in your favor. So intention is important. And an amazing clinical psychologist, her name is Emily Anhalt. She runs this company called COA, C-O-A, and they are all about mental fitness, and she talks about the benefits of play.
And one thing that she said, she says, "Sometimes you need to separate what you do for celebration, for what you do to cope. Because a lot of times when they are mixed, you do the same thing to cope and you do the same thing to celebrate. It creates some challenges." It just goes back to being intentional about what you are doing. And it's challenging to be conscious about some of these things, because a lot of times it is your unconscious mind, whether you like to believe it or not, that is ready to show. And it isn't until you blink and like, "How did I get here?" You realize that had you been more intentional, you probably wouldn't have made those choices.
Wendy Fong:
So with the mindset, it was interesting you said that the reasons why we celebrate and the reasons why we cope, so that's for diets. Would that be the same mindset we should use when it comes to play?
Gary Ware:
Yeah. Yeah. And it's not saying that you can't do one versus the other, but it's all about trying to be intentional and trying to be conscious about what you're doing. And what I love about the work that I do, and the playful mindset, one of the characteristics of someone with the playful mindset is that they don't see a mistake as the end of the road. They just see that as just a stop to learn something. And so maybe at one point you might find yourself, "Man, I have this pattern, anytime I'm starting to get stressed out and I don't want to do something. I do this thing." And maybe it is something that might be considered its play, but you have the wrong meaning attached to it.
Well, the cool thing is you can say, "All right. Let me do," and I like to invite people to do this, "Let me do a play experiment. Let me experiment with this." The fact of calling something an experiment, it takes a lot of the pressure out of it because with any experiment, experiments may or may not work. But I like to say experiment with something and say, "Well, what if I did this?" Or what if I said, "You know what? I'm getting that feeling of dread and I'm being called to play. But what if I only played for 10 minutes? And the reason why I'm playing is to just give my brain a chance to disconnect from it, to give me a chance to collect my thoughts. And then after the time it goes off, I need to jump in and I need to do it." That slight shift can be the difference between thriving and not thriving.
Wendy Fong:
That just gave me an idea. So maybe in my calendar invite, when I schedule the 10 minutes each day of play, I could put in the body of it. What is my purpose for doing this? Right? Whether it's to disconnect, to destress, to reconnect with myself, to take a break from technology, whatever it is. I could just put that in there, and it's almost journaling too.
Gary Ware:
Yep. Agreed.
Wendy Fong:
So how can play also create inclusive environments?
Gary Ware:
Yes. With play, because in order to play you have to be invited and you have to have a play space. There are rules to play into these games. As I mentioned earlier, when you are in this play state, you are suspending your current belief for the rules of the game. And as byproduct of healthy play, you are creating dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphin, those are the neurochemicals that help you trust other people. And again, by doing that, it makes the groups trust each other. It allows you to be your full self, and over time it's creating those habits that will allow you to speak your mind, because you feel it's safe to do so. And again, it's not just any sort of play, this is where it calls for intention.
And this is what I love about play is that you can think of any game, and one thing I love about our brains is our brains always trying to connect the dots. You can look at any game and you can say, "What was the lesson here? What did we explore? What did we learn? What did we get?" And again, sometimes it can be different, but the cool thing is when you are creating play, especially in diverse groups, and if it's done right, people are going to trust each other. And that is important. That's the foundation.
Wendy Fong:
And another thing it remind me of is play also brings us to the present moment. I feel a lot of times if we're fearful, or whatever subconscious about something, it's because we're thinking about things that happened to us in the past, or our past biases.
Gary Ware:
Yes.
Wendy Fong:
Whether we're conscious of it or not. So when we start to play, we have to be fully present, fully committed to whoever's in front of me, whatever's in front of me. And so you throw that out the window because you're just with this person, and connecting with this person at this time.
Gary Ware:
Agreed. And then when it's done, this is the important, and I love what you said, Wendy, about journaling, or recapping, or debriefing, or just thinking about the experience. Because again, a lot of times we take this for granted because it's something that we just do and we don't realize like, "Wow. You know what? I saw this person in a different light here." Because our brains is very good at negative things, and negative things your brain will remember it, it will store it, it will shoot it right back at you. And say there're some strife at work and maybe you start to have this belief about this person, and that is again, going to start to affect your actions towards them.
And you're right, you're not always going to be present, you're always going to be referencing other things. But imagine you got in a playful environment, and you were playing some games, and then afterwards, you're starting to reflect on that, and then you start to think about the person that you were with. And then you're like, "You know what? That person helped me out. We were on a team together, and without question, they helped me. You know what? Maybe I was wrong to criticize them before."
Wendy Fong:
Yeah, absolutely. It puts them in a different light, and it's a different experience, right? Because I totally agree when negative experiences happen, like say I make a mistake at work, or there's an issue at work, sometimes I can't sleep that well because I'm dwelling on it for so long. But if you're put into a playful experience, which is certainly more positive experience, it counteracts that negative, the feelings and emotions that you had associated with that person.
Gary Ware:
Yes. Agreed.
Wendy Fong:
All right. So as we're closing, okay, what would you like to leave with our listeners to recap on where to start? You talked about setting your intention, creating that routine. What would you like to leave with our listeners as we close?
Gary Ware:
I like to say that it's all about little micro habits. The micro habits that you do right now, just like if you think about compound interests, would turn into something big. So this might be a lot for you. You might be the person it's drinking from the fire hose, and you don't know where to start. Well, my invite, my challenge for you is, what is one thing that you can do to put you on the path to being a more playful person so that you can reap the benefits? And how can you experiment with it? That's it, just one thing, one small thing. And if you're listening to this and you know a lot of this stuff, and maybe you're a little bit more seasoned in this. All right, cool. Take it a step up. But at the end of the day, you need to do what I call, reduce activation energy. We're amazing beings but we're not really good with change, because of the way our brains are worked and with patterns. So you need to make it so simple that it's like a no brainer to do.
Wendy Fong:
I love it. I love it. Just one thing and keep it simple, otherwise you won't do it if it's too complicated.
Gary Ware:
You're not going to do it. It's too complicated.
Wendy Fong:
All right. Well, lastly, Gary, how can our listeners find you and connect with you, especially if I want to learn more virtual games that you have to offer?
Gary Ware:
Yeah. So on my website, breakthroughplay.com. That's where you can go and keep up with what I'm doing. Actually, this is new, I have a resource section and I do have a download of some games that you can download that's there. But also you can find me on LinkedIn, GaryWare, G-A-R-Y-W-A-RE. In case you can't tell, I love talking about this. So if you have any questions on how you can activate some of this stuff in your environment, whether it's work or personal life, hit me up. I'm happy to play around, pun intended, with this with people if they're interested. I'm on all the other social medias as well.
Wendy Fong:
Awesome. Well, thank you, Gary, so much for being here and taking the time out of your busy schedule. I definitely want to make play a priority in my life, and I'm going to set out my calendar right now.
Gary Ware:
Yeah.
Wendy Fong:
By listening to this episode, you have earned one PDC or Professional Development Credit towards your SHRM Certification. Woohoo. Just enter the activity code 21-65A as in acrobat, N as in nice, R as in ready, and the original published date of February 8th, 2021. Thank you everyone listeners for listening. If you haven't already, please subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. And be sure to rate and review the show wherever you listen to podcast. Feel free to reach out to me, you can find me on Twitter @SHRMWendy or on LinkedIn. And if you'd like to learn more about the Honest HR podcast, about myself or the other hosts, or to get additional information and resources on what was discussed in today's episode, head over to shrm.org/honesthr. To learn more about other SHRM podcasts, check out shrm.org/podcasts. And stay safe everyone, be kind to one another, and peace out.