Callie and Deanna talk about the good, bad and the ugly of bosses with guest Beth Lambrecht. Beth talk about faking it until you make it on stretch projects and the importance of feedback, being accountable and humble.
Callie and Deanna talk about the good, bad and the ugly of bosses with guest Beth Lambrecht. Beth talk about faking it until you make it on stretch projects and the importance of feedback, being accountable and humble.
Callie:
Hi everyone and welcome back. I'm Callie.
Deanna:
And I'm Deanna, and this is Honest HR, a podcast from SHRM, where we get real with HR professionals.
Callie:
We wanted to create a safe space for people to passionately share their HR stories and insights.
Deanna:
Because this is a safe space and because we are passionate, we understand our approach, our topics and our stories aren't for everyone.
Callie:
Come if you're interested, stay if you like what we're throwing down. We like you and appreciate you either way.
Deanna:
All right, let's jump into this week's topic. I'm going to pass it off to you, Callie.
Callie:
I am really excited about this topic. It was a topic that we posted out on the LinkedIn page and our guest today actually commented on the post, so I'm excited to hear her feedback on what makes a good boss.
I wanted to just intro the topic with a couple of things that we've talked about previously on episodes but that you've probably also heard in various presentations or things that you've heard around management and managers.
One of the biggest things and one of the reasons that I think that this is such an important topic is because we know that people don't leave companies, they leave managers. That's been proven time and time again, whether you do exit surveys or things like that, people will almost always say that it wasn't the company that they left, it was their manager. There will be examples where they are actually leaving the company, whether it's the culture, whatever change going on in the organization, but a lot of the times, and most of the times I would say, they're leaving because of their managers.
A lot of that is because companies promote good independent contractors to manager roles before they're ready. They've got a bunch of people in these roles that maybe didn't want to do management or were never meant to be managers, but they've been promoted because the trajectory for independent contractors ends at a certain point and those individuals want to continue working for the organization and want more money and want more titles and things like that, so they're just promoted into these manager roles. We find that sometimes our bosses aren't necessarily meant to be bosses.
We initiated the conversation around what makes a good boss, but wanted to have some real conversations about what maybe doesn't make a good boss and some of our experiences with bad bosses.
I just want to make a call out, I feel obligated to do this, but in our first episode, I made a comment about an organization that I worked for and that I left because they treated me poorly and that comes back to this comment here. I didn't actually leave the company because they treated me poorly. I left because a boss treated me poorly. I just want to make sure that I am not smearing the company that I mentioned in that first episode, but it really was for me an opportunity to leave a company because of the way I was treated by a former manager.
With that, Beth, I want to introduce you. I want to give you a little bit of time to talk about your experience and your comment on the LinkedIn page. But first, I want to just allow you to introduce yourself, tell your story, how you got into HR, talk a little bit about bosses you've had that maybe have changed the way you practice HR and just tell us about yourself.
Beth:
Thanks so much, Callie. I'm from Southwest, Michigan, not that far from University of Notre Dame, currently working in the steel industry.
Callie:
Sorry. I went to Notre Dame in undergrad.
Beth:
I know, I know. I heard that in one of the podcasts.
Callie:
Okay, sorry.
Beth:
I'm from Southwest Michigan, currently working in the steel industry as an HR supervisor for a local manufacturing company. I'm one of those HR practitioners who didn't immediately have HR in mind as a career field. Initially, I was-
Callie:
Weird. I feel like that's everybody who ends up in HR.
Beth:
Right? Initially, I was very interested in breaking into IT. After high school, I gained my associate's degree in computer information systems, but towards the end of that schooling, it just didn't interest me anymore. I took a break from school and really discovered that I had a knack for people. So I ran down my options and nursing was actually one of those options until I read the horrible curriculum with all of the math and science, and quickly just decided no eventually, and decided to try business, which led me down the path of taking a HR classes and I just fell in love with it.
The combination of business and people was the perfect fit for me. I actually graduated with my Bachelor's from Indiana Tech in Fort Wayne, Indiana. That eventually landed me a few internships and entry level positions, which got me to where I am. Each one of those transitions had its up and downs, as far as direct managers go. I've learned to adapt to many different leadership styles because of it.
I've had a very laissez-faire boss who just let the office run wild and really didn't do much to control people in it. To a heavy micro-manager, who literally proofread emails before we were allowed to distribute them.
Callie:
I've been there. To be fair, I've been there.
Beth:
It's quite demoralizing in itself. It's been a fun and rewarding career so far, looking forward to next steps and what's to come.
Callie:
Thank you for that intro, Beth, that was really helpful. I always love getting shout-outs because we're all from the Midwest. So, woohoo Midwest. But as Kelly mentioned earlier, we are pulling content from the conversations in our LinkedIn group that we had a few people weigh in on their favorite bosses.
The first comment I want to discuss is from Amanda, Amanda shared on LinkedIn that her current boss is her favorite because she encourages her to stretch and that she's learned a lot in that role. Beth, have you ever worked for a boss who pushed you and how did you respond to that?
Beth:
Absolutely. It was quite honestly one of the most frustrating times in my career, but it was also the most fulfilling and rewarding.
Back then, I used the phrase, "Fake it until you make it a lot." Because I was given assignments that were just completely out of my comfort zone, which really forced me to research network and basically just generally figure it out on my own. I was exposed to many different areas of HR through those projects. From developing simple out-of-the-box employee engagement activities to strategic initiatives. The tough part was that my boss was one of the toughest critics out there. This is the micromanager that I mentioned earlier. Everything had to be perfect and her trust was just really hard to gain. My response to her was to take in the feedback, remain accountable for the work and just be humble during those stretch assignments. I also discovered what type of leader I wanted to be. I started focusing on leading by example and showing empathy towards others, which I was already doing, but I was more aware.
I was just really thankful for the experience and the stretch assignments and the push that she gave me to [inaudible 00:08:03] forward.
Callie:
That's awesome. And I think we could probably all look at our careers and identify a time when we were in a situation where we were being stretched or we needed to stretch into an assignment that we had been given. But for those of our listeners that maybe haven't had the opportunity to do a stretch assignment or haven't been given the opportunity to do a stretch assignment, they're out there. My only comment, Beth's story there in Deanna's question is to make sure that if you are ready for a stretch assignment, that you ask for them, don't be afraid to say, "I'm ready for something new. I'm ready for a little bit more", and don't wait necessarily for them to be given to you, make sure that you are comfortable actually asking for those stretch assignments.
Deanna, do you have anything to add?
Deanna:
Going to add that, I mean this stretch assignment could be big or it can be small. And if you need to start off small, that's completely fine. But if it's a little bit out of your comfort zone, I say, "Go for it."
Callie:
I like stretch assignments. I like the fact that they get you exposure to things that maybe you haven't been doing before.
The second comment from LinkedIn that we wanted to touch on today is from [Anuba 00:09:15], who suggests having a manager who lets you work in your own way. And this one was very striking to me and it actually made me think of an episode of NCIS one of my fave shows. It's on 24/7 if I can handle it in my house. But the episode that I thought of when I read this comment was Ellie Bishop, when she first started, she was really into working on her laptop on the floor and that made Gibbs so uncomfortable, but he didn't feel comfortable telling her that it made him uncomfortable. This entire episode, you watch Gibbs struggle with the way that Ellie works.
And finally at the end, Gibbs broke down and said, "It's weird. What you're doing is weird." And then they hashed it out. And after that, they were able to work in a different way. For me, I do think it's important to have a manager that understands the way you work, but also it lets you know how that affects those around you. That was an interesting take, I guess, on an Anuba's comment. But Beth, how important is it for you from your perspective for your manager to have open lines of communication with direct reports?
Beth:
It's extremely important in my mind. To me, open, candid, professional communication is really the foundation to a healthy working relationship. If you don't have the ability or really the courage to have those tough conversations or even just a conversation that might be uncomfortable, not necessarily tough, the team dynamic just, to me, suffers immensely even if it's just a one-on-one relationship that could really filter over to the other team members. Problems could fester, in my experience, emotions rise, and at some point it all comes to [inaudible 00:11:18] probably in a negative way. In my experience, trust amongst the team, somewhat diminishes if you can't have those opening lines of communication. If a manager isn't experienced or doesn't have the courage to have those open lines, my advice to them is to prepare in advance by maybe developing bullet points or doing a dry run of conversations. Practice it really does perfect the skill.
Deanna:
I actually want to touch on a couple points you made there, Beth, you mentioned that sometimes it's hard to have those conversations and because people, I mean, they don't like to have tough conversations, they end up just not having them. And that's also going to be diminishing to the direct report to the team in general. But as an HR plug, when you need help with those conversations, and I know you mentioned bullet points, which I think is super helpful, come to HR. We can help you craft how you want to approach your employee for the good, the bad and the ugly. And that'll give you the confidence to then go back to them and have that open candid conversation with them.
Beth:
Absolutely. I do that, oh goodness, several times a week. And you would be surprised by how easy it is for that supervisor or manager to go back and have the conversation and then get the feedback as to how well did it go? And they are just completely relieved for the help.
Deanna:
Exactly. And I think it's super important to have those conversations in terms of the way you work, have them early on, on both sides of the aisle. Managers, tell your direct reports, "Here are my expectations", but also as a direct report, have the courage to have that honest conversation back to your manager and say, "I understand your expectations. This is how I work best." And I think from there, I mean, you should be golden hopefully.
But before I move forward, Callie, do you have any comments about that?
Callie:
The only thing that I would mention is that I alluded to it way in the beginning when I was discussing a topic, but a lot of managers just don't feel comfortable either having those conversations with their direct reports or even coming to HR. Another plug for HR, Deanna, is HR needs to find a way to invest in training of managers. Whether it's communication, super basic, this is how you have conversations with your direct reports, but the training of managers and making sure that everybody's on the same level playing field as a manager is so important. We've done in past roles, manager training, like a 101: this is how you manage other people, this is how you have expectation conversations and you wouldn't believe how much that improved the relationships between managers in direct reports.
I would really, really encourage you as HR practitioners to look into what it would cost to either put together an in-house manager training or maybe look outside to get a third-party to come in and do it. But any sort of training you can put your managers through to get them, like I said, on that level playing field is beyond beneficial to that group.
Deanna:
I'm sure, Callie, you know this; Beth, you know this, and any of our HR listeners, you are preaching to the choir when you talk about that kind of stuff. And I could talk about that four hours, but I'm going to go ahead and move on to our third LinkedIn comment. Two ladies actually chimed in on this question. One of the ladies' names is Chica, hopefully I'm saying that correctly. And also Sarah, they both said that their favorite boss was patient and allowed them to ask questions.
Before I go into it a little bit further, I want to give a nice little shout-out to my current boss who can be described in this manner to a T. As HR professionals, but also as young professionals in general, we don't know all the answers. Getting some face time with my boss, gives me the chance to talk through a lot of situations. And in my role, specifically, employee relations issues that arise in the workplace and I want to learn more about it. He gives me the chance to sit down with him, walk through the situation. I give my feedback and then I get to hear from him. He's incredibly patient because I'm always asking questions and he's really great about being present when we talk. It's the little things that matter between us when we have these conversations. His back will face his computer, so he's never looking at his computer. He never looks at his cell phone when we're talking and he also places his office phone on low volume. So there's no distractions, which I really, really appreciated.
No matter the level of importance of our interaction, there's always this mutual respect between us whenever we're having conversations. And I think being present in these conversations is super, super vital.
Beth, I'm going to turn it to you. What do you think about these attributes of patients and mutual respect in managers?
Beth:
Oh, I would completely agree. It's extremely important for managers to be present in the moment and engage and give their full attention to whoever they're talking to, whether it's their direct rapport or a peer, or even an hourly individual out on the production floor like in my case. I actually once had a manager that would multitask during group meetings or one-on-one conversations and I definitely felt the lack of respect. But at the time-
Callie:
You know research shows that multitasking isn't real, right? Our minds don't actually let us multitask. Isn't that funny?
Beth:
Yes. I have seen that and it's so true because it's like squirrel-
Deanna:
Exactly.
Beth:
... you can't focus on more than one thing at a time.
My position, I was really young in my career and I really didn't have the guts to say anything to that specific manager. The way that I would handle it was really indirectly. I would ask the manager to confirm conversation details so I knew that they heard me. I would stop talking until they actually looked up at me.
I've got more experience, more years under my belt, so if that happened now, I most likely would one-on-one provide feedback directly to them, even if it was my direct manager, because they need to understand how that makes an individual feel. Because if they don't, it just leads to more frustrations. In my opinion, it's really important for a manager to be present for the cohesiveness, productivity of the team or that individual and for managers to take the time to actively listen to their team members.
Callie:
I've had a boss who was glued to their cell phone at all times. When we were in meetings, she'd be on her cell phone, when we were having one-on-one conversations, she'd be checking her cell phone. It got to the point where her reputation within the company, so not just within HR and her general teammates, but throughout the entire company was that she was addicted to Candy Crush or something.
She was always on her phone and we didn't know like what app it was that she was into or if she was just texting or responding to messages or emails or things like that. But it was like, "Oh, there's Candy Crush Queen", because it was constantly glued to her hand. It did get to the point where I, in conversations was trying to politely say things like, "People think you're addicted to your phone", or, "What are the apps that you have on your phone?" Trying to hone in on what the need was there to always be on the cell phone. And I will say that we found that there were some health issues. The reason that she was constantly glued to her phone was because she was checking in on various health items and things from her doctors and things like that.
It would've been so much more meaningful if she was just upfront and said, "Listen, guys, I'm going to have to be on my phone, I'm going through some stuff." Instead of the entire company calling her Candy Crush Queen. So I think that's the thing that comes back to conversations and communication, if we can all be clear about expectations, but then understand that some things affect the way that we do our job, I think that would have gone a long way in that specific example.
All right. I think for me, I wanted to end this episode talking about how important it is to keep your good managers close. They say, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer", for me, it's, "Keep your good bosses on your speed dial" because you never know when you're going to need a good reference or when you have an issue at work that you want to tap into somebody on. But making sure that your corner is stacked with your cheerleaders.
I will say that I haven't done a great job of keeping in contact with my good bosses. And having these conversations with you guys on this podcast makes me want to reach out to all of them. Shout out to all of my bosses who get text messages from me in a couple days. But I think that's the biggest high note for me is just making sure that you hold onto those good bosses and keep your network apprised with what's going on and making sure that you're keeping those connections ready for whatever you may need to throw at them. That's my high note as far as talking about bosses and managers and reminding me of good times that I've had in my career with my managers, but Deanna, what's your high note? And then Beth, will come back to you.
Deanna:
I'd say my high note takes me back to my first job outside of college. My manager, I didn't know a lot, and she was so gracious about many things and I didn't think I had the communication skills right out of college to have the bravery to let my manager know or let my boss know when something was frustrating me and I would definitely just bottle it up and it would probably be shown in other ways. One of the phrases that she taught me and I've taken this with me since that job was, "Never suffer in silence." If something is bothering you, for whatever reason, you need to go ahead and talk to your manager about it. You can vent to other people, but I think it's really worth having that candid conversation with your manager in order for you guys, both to move forward together, I guess, on this. Because if not, it's going to manifest itself in other ways.
We mentioned this before, earlier in the podcast, because I'm in HR, I handle a lot of the exit interviews. And like you said, Callie, in those exit interviews, it's too late. My high note is don't ever suffer in silence.
Callie:
Beth, what about you?
Beth:
I can echo everything that Deanna said. Just keep pushing forward, go through those tough times, don't give up. Adapt to your boss's leadership style. And if you really can't adapt, or if there's just things that don't agree with you on the inside or don't match your why, look for a transition because you should enjoy who you work with. Don't be afraid to make that step.
Callie:
Well, Beth, I want to thank you for coming on this week's podcast. It was a great conversation. Like I said, it made me reminisce on some great bosses that I've had in the past. Beth, I want to thank you for coming on our podcast. Thanks so much for your feedback and your willingness to talk about good, bad, ugly bosses, not looks, just rough bosses that you've had in the past.
We appreciate you coming out for those that are listening and have visited our LinkedIn group, make sure that you're responding to some of our conversations. You never know if you'll hear your name dropped on an upcoming episode or if we reach out and ask you to be a guest, which is how we found Beth.
Again, thanks for coming out, everybody. Thanks for listening. We'll be dropping the next episode in about a week and we look forward to having you come back.
Deanna:
See ya.