<p>You don’t need to be a C-suite executive to make an impact at your organization: In this episode of SHRM’s Honest HR podcast, host Amber Clayton and talent acquisition maven Susan Gygax consider what it means to have influence as an HR professional. They also identify approaches and effective habits to help you expand your influence and consistently make meaningful contributions at your workplace. </p><p>Susan is the founder of Spectacle Talent Partners, a talent acquisition firm that specializes in helping startups and high growth companies face their recruiting challenges head-on. Learn more at <a href="https://spectacletalentpartners.com/">spectacletalentpartners.com</a>.</p><p>This episode is Part 1 of a three (3) part Mini-Series on Leadership and Navigation.</p><p>EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING</p><p>Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All you have to do is listen to a full Mini-Series to earn PDCs! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast recording itself.</p>
You don’t need to be a C-suite executive to make an impact at your organization: In this episode of SHRM’s Honest HR podcast, host Amber Clayton and talent acquisition maven Susan Gygax consider what it means to have influence as an HR professional. They also identify approaches and effective habits to help you expand your influence and consistently make meaningful contributions at your workplace.
Susan is the founder of Spectacle Talent Partners, a talent acquisition firm that specializes in helping startups and high growth companies face their recruiting challenges head-on. Learn more at spectacletalentpartners.com.
This episode is Part 1 of a three (3) part Mini-Series on Leadership and Navigation.
EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING
Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All you have to do is listen to a full Mini-Series to earn PDCs! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast recording itself.
Amber Clayton:
Welcome to the Honest HR podcast. The show that explores the uncomfortable, complicated, and sometimes wonderful truths of the workplace. We're here to have honest conversations, giving you the good, the bad and the ugly side of HR, nothing is off the table.
Wendy Fong:
This is a SHRM podcast approved to provide SHRM CP and SHRM SCP re-certification PDCs. Details will be provided inside each qualifying episode. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Gloria St. Clair Miller:
And I'm Gloria St. Clair Miller. And we are your three hosts.
Amber Clayton:
Hello everyone. And welcome back. I'm your host, Amber Clayton director of SHRM's knowledge center. On our episode today, we're going to start part one of our mini series on leadership and navigation. This podcast is approved to provide recertification PDCs, but only if you listen to the full mini series. Joining us today is Susan Gygax. Sue, founder of Spectacle Talent Partners, a business that helps startup and high growth companies face recruiting challenges head on. Sue has 20 plus years experience in talent acquisition and human resources. She's worked in the healthcare and education industries. I also had the privilege of working with Sue around 10 years ago, and I'm happy to have her here today.
Susan Gygax:
Thanks Amber. I'm so happy to be here joining the podcast today. So hello to everybody listening. My background in talent acquisition was a very deliberate turn. I actually started my career as a generalist and then decided that talent acquisition was really the place that I wanted to spend my time. So having led large geographically dispersed teams, I've recruited, at this point in my career, I recruited everything from truck drivers and TV producers to receptionists, to C-suite executives and about a hundred other things in between. So I love talent acquisition and excited to be talking with you guys today.
Amber Clayton:
Great. Well thank you. And thank you for being here to help our listeners tackle the role of leadership in navigation. Specifically, we're going to be talking about leading and influencing without the job title. I can imagine that many of us have been in a position where our titles didn't include manager or director, and that we're given a level of responsibility that includes leading and navigating and also being influential, excuse me, influential to others below and above our position. We recognize that a strategic mindset leading to HR success is a function of successful application of both knowledge and behavior. In other words, it stems from not only what you know, but also what you do. And what you do is around your behaviors and behavioral competencies. Those are your knowledge, your skills, abilities, and other characteristics. That includes the ability to be able to lead and navigate. And an influence is one of those sub competencies of leadership and navigation. So in your experience, what can you tell us? What does influence mean? And, how do you think that applies to the workplace?
Susan Gygax:
Yeah, it's a good question because it's something that I think we all understand, but sometimes it's a little difficult to wrap our minds around it. So there's really two types of influence at work. There's formal influence and informal influence. And Amber has started to talk about this. So formal influence is the influence that we're given based on our job title or our areas of responsibility, or some might say your span of control. That's what you get when you have a certain position within an organization. And so we're talking to HR folks. So they know that it's really that scope of responsibility based on that title. But the second type of influence that I think a lot of us maybe have seen, but maybe don't really understand as well is, something called informal influence. And that's the degree to which you influence others. And I love what Amber said about it's knowledge and behaviors.
That's such a powerful combination because informal influence is really practical power. And practical, because you need it to get things done at work and power because it's what drives those outcomes and the projects that you're working on, or the difficulties that maybe your company is facing. Looking at formal influence again, we see this in our organizational charts, right? Who reports to who, who leads which team. So if an individual has a title say of manager of procurement, but if it's their direct report, maybe the procurement lead that everyone goes to get things done, that lead actually has more practical power than the manager. So sometimes I think informal influence can also be seen as that soft infrastructure, right? The way that work gets done at an organization. I remember I was at a meeting in one of those fancy conference rooms at a large table, and there was about 10 of us in the room.
I was the manager of talent acquisition. And in the room was my boss, the director, and the VP of HR and about a half dozen other people, either in HR and, there was a project manager in that room and we were discussing a project and the VP asked a question to my director and my director turned to me to answer the question. And I realized at that moment that my influence went up in that moment, because I had the information that they were looking for. And after that moment I saw my career progress. Now it was a fast moving company. So there was a lot to do and a lot going on. So a lot of people were progressing rather quickly, but in that moment, my influence went up because I was able to provide information that they needed at that time.
Amber Clayton:
So what do you think could happen or would've happened, had your manager not turned to you? I know sometimes we're in that position where we have the information, we're sitting in that conference room and we want to speak up, but then we hesitate because we're not in that role. The question maybe not, it might not have been directed towards us. What do you think someone could do in that type of situation?
Susan Gygax:
I think it really depends on so many dynamics, but in my opinion, and I think culture today, the organizational cultures that we're striving for, maybe in some cases feel like we're aspiring to. I would say if you feel like you have input that would be beneficial, to share it. And maybe it's not in that meeting. If you feel, maybe though it's inappropriate or you don't want to overstep, but then go to the next person that maybe could find that information useful or helpful because influence isn't a moment in time, right? Influence is something that has a continuum where we can either gain or lose it over time. And so it's something I liken it to currency sometimes. It can gain value and lose value and there's certainly things we can talk, we can do at work to help us gain that. And certainly we don't want to lose it, but can help us move forward with the type of influence we want to see.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. I know for myself just thinking about my past experience and I've been in situations before where I didn't necessarily have the title, but I was expected to influence others who may have been above my pay grade, if you will. And I did, I found it challenging sometimes. I faced the situations where someone would say, "Well, I don't really need to listen to you. You're not my manager" or, "Well, let me talk to your director about it instead." As if I didn't have the information and this is early on in my career. So I didn't really have a lot of guidance, I didn't have a mentor. And so, I was winging it really. So how does someone improve their influence or informal influence I should say in the workplace?
Susan Gygax:
So I think the first thing we want to do is understand where we are in terms of the type of, or degree of influence that we have. And there's simple things I think that we can... There's simple questions we can ask ourselves to better understand the current level of our informal influence. So things like, when you offer a suggestion in a meeting, do people listen and respond? When you are speaking with your boss, do you receive honest and direct feedback? That's another way that we can try to understand our current level of informal influence.
Thinking back to situations at work where maybe you've been told you're approachable, or if you understand that you can easily build rapport with others, or maybe you're invited to participate in meetings or in projects. All of these are indicators of our current level of influence. So I think it's important before we maybe think about ways to increase where we are. We want to understand what are maybe some things that stood out to you out of those examples, that maybe there's one or two that you really want to try and build up and expand that current level of influence. One of the things I have found in my own career that has really been a powerful influence builder is saying yes. Saying yes to projects.
Amber Clayton:
I do that all the time. And sometimes I want to beat myself up for saying yes all the time.
Susan Gygax:
Totally agree. Totally agree. So we want to be prudent. We want to be practical, but looking for ways we can say yes. So maybe you say yes and ask if you can co lead, or maybe you ask for clarity on the objectives of that particular project. We've all walked out of a meeting or out of a call only to find out what we thought the goal was, maybe isn't exactly what the desired objective is. But saying yes is so powerful that when we take on projects that we care about, even if they're a little bit outside of our comfort zone, can really be powerful ways to increase our level of informal influence in the workplace.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. That's a really good point. And, I think about this saying yes, and like I said, I'm one of those people that I say yes a lot. And then I have a lot on my plate. And so, you don't want to, the saying goes, over promise and under deliver. So don't put yourself in a situation where you have said yes so many times that you're not capable of being able to help fulfill the responsibilities of whatever task or project that you're working on. But obviously you need to be mindful of those things when you do that. But yeah, I agree that, saying yes is important. And for me in particular, I have found that saying yes, helps me to collaborate across boundaries and to be able to work with others.
And it really does put myself, even though I'm sometimes a team player and not necessarily the lead, I have found myself becoming the lead in that particular project, just because of my collaboration with others. So I wholeheartedly agree that saying yes to projects, even those that are outside of your comfort zone are not necessarily what you do on a daily basis, are really important. So one of the things you mentioned is, the honest and direct feedback from your managers or from your bosses. And I know that's not always the case with most people, some people do have their annual performance evaluations. I know some businesses are now doing them more frequently, but there are a lot of bosses out there that may not be giving that honest or direct feedback. So how can one influence their manager to provide that honest and direct feedback?
Susan Gygax:
Yeah, yeah. That is something that I think, it's amazing sometimes how prevalent it still is that managers do not feel equipped to give that feedback or simply don't want to. So I understand that it can be really frustrating. I think first of all, when it's something that seems to be something that should be easily given and easily received. And I think one of the ways that we can do that is asking those questions that are a little bit uncomfortable to ask, but questions are one of the most powerful tools we have in our repertoire. And we're really good. HR professionals are really good at asking questions, but I think if we ask with intent, to really listen to the answers away from distractions, asking a question to really understand, as opposed to maybe generating our response while somebody else is speaking. And I think, if we can start to have the conversation with our managers and request that feedback, it really becomes a starting point.
I think questions are a starting point, but it really boils down to, I think, trust, which is a value I think people have on their walls or in their mission statement or vision statement. But it's something that happens one on one. Trust is made and trust is broken, usually one on one at work. And so if you're not getting that feedback from your boss, I think you should be very proactive in asking some of those questions and really trying to take some of that feedback. And if you're still not getting it, then I would say, then you have to just sort of look for other places where you can get some of that feedback. Maybe it's a matrix manager, maybe not your direct supervisor, or maybe it's somebody that you worked with, even a peer or colleague can give you some of that feedback that you're looking for.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned taking feedback and I've had myself, employees who have questioned, how are they doing? They've wanted feedback, but then when the feedback was given, they didn't necessarily take it and use it to improve or to make any changes. And for a manager, that became very frustrating for me, because they were asking for that feedback. So I would just as listeners on the podcast here, if you're out there and you're trying to ask for that feedback, just make sure that you're taking that information and doing something with it. That you're not defensive of what's being said. I mean, you're asking for the honest and direct feedback, and sometimes that's not going to be always positive and you have to be open to that. And these are the things that we need to do to learn and to grow.
Susan Gygax:
And sometimes we listen, there's, I call it the dynamic duo of active listening. It's what we say and what they see. And sometimes when we're given constructive criticism or feedback, that's maybe hard to hear. People can shy away from that, if what they're seeing from us is some negative body language, right? So we all know negative body language, arms folded, maybe the eye roll, or just those disinterested signals that maybe we're sending and not even realizing that we're sending. So we do have to take responsibility for, not just asking the question, but showing and demonstrating with what we are going to say back and forth in that dialogue. But also what we're telling people with our body, we know body language makes up a significant portion of communication. So something else to be mindful of, I think when we're on that particular topic.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely. And even with many employees now teleworking, many have experienced that we're doing now, WebEx, video conferences. You could still see that body language across the screen just as you could someone sitting in front of you. So keep that in mind, especially when you've got that camera on, that you could see each other and how you're reacting to the conversation. So, you mentioned previously Sue, about building rapport with others. How would one go about doing that in the workplace, especially when maybe they work alone or, for somebody who may be more of an introvert, what types of things could someone do to be able to build rapport with others in the workplace?
Susan Gygax:
Yeah. And building rapport is something that I think it's easy to say, well, that's easier for people who maybe are extroverted, because they're naturally going to start a dialogue with whoever's on the call or whoever's in the meeting. And for those in the workplace who maybe are less apt to feel comfortable doing that, I would say, one of the most important things you can do is simply to be intentional. If after listening to this podcast, you realize that you really want to increase your level of influence at work. You want to be intentional about building rapport, certainly with everybody. But I would say, especially if this is not an area that you feel really as part of your comfort zone, be intentional about building rapport with one or two key people that you admire, that you think really have an understanding about the organization or the business. Somebody that you feel could really help give you a better understanding because once we make a decision to do something and take those steps, it oftentimes isn't quite as difficult as we had maybe imagined it would be in our minds.
So I would say that's one of the most important things to do is really understanding that, there has to be intent around that, especially if it's something that's outside of your comfort zone.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned also about being told or have you been told that you're approachable. And I can recollect in my past experience, especially during an interview process where I was the interviewer, where someone said right off the bat that they thought I didn't like them. And it wasn't, I kept a neutral face during the interview process. It was just something that I did as a recruiter at the time. Because I didn't want to give the person an indication that I was interested in them, because at that point I wasn't really sure. So I didn't, I wasn't all smiles and it wasn't informal conversation. I just kind of kept my body language neutral if you will. So yeah. I mean, sometimes I'm told that, I might be unapproachable. They're not quite sure just based on my body language how I am, but what would one do to improve on that approachability.
Susan Gygax:
Yeah. And I think that's a really, really powerful statement is, sometimes we're unaware of the unintended messages that we're sending with our body language. And so if you say, yeah, that is one of the areas that I don't know if I'm approachable. I haven't been told that or conversely I've been told I'm not approachable, again these are things that can change and evolve over time. And so I think it's something that we need to reflect in our next meeting or maybe even on our next call and look at both of those signals. What are we saying? Are we defensive when somebody asks us a question and maybe they're questioning our ability on something and are we aware that maybe we're sounding a bit defensive or are we looking a bit defensive? I think other ways we can consider whether or not we're perceived as being approachable is asking people we trust at work.
If they feel that way about us or did it maybe take time to get to know us and then realize we were nice or we were friendly or whatever those things are because, it's not uncommon, especially the human resources function that we send out a bit of a message because we have to maintain that neutral party position. And it's really important that people don't perceive that somehow somebody's getting special attention because they're friends or someone is getting a benefit somehow from a function as critical as human resources, because of the friendly nature of a relationship.
So it does put a special spotlight on the HR function to really be mindful of sort of those engagements that we have with people. We don't want to cross those imaginary lines. But I think even with that though, there's a awareness that we need to build, when influence is something that we also need at work as human resources professionals. That we aren't sending an overly negative message with either what we're saying or those body language messages that we can send. And to really sort of understand what that looks like on a regular basis, regardless of zoom call or in person or anything in between.
Amber Clayton:
So for those listeners who asked themselves, when they offered suggestions in a meeting and, changes are often made based on their input. For those who have experienced the opposite, where changes weren't made on their input or they felt like they weren't being listened to, any thoughts or suggestions for those individuals?
Susan Gygax:
Well, sure. And I think... And this is something that we, there's certainly not a hundred percent of the time I'm going to offer a suggestion and everybody's going to say, "Oh my goodness, that's the best thing I've ever heard," but I think we want to look at it from a movie, right? So if we look at the course of our work, our career, or maybe even with our current employer, or if we're newer to the human resources function, look outside of even our school career or other places, and you want to look at over the long term, are you able to communicate in a way that's clear, listen to information that's being shared back with you. And then also just to make sure that people want to know more maybe about what comment you made or the suggestion that you had. So certainly, we're not looking for a hundred percent of the time that everybody says, "Oh my goodness."
"I really need to hear what you have to say," but is there a dialogue around maybe a comment, if it's an area of specialty that you have, for example. You want to make sure that you're sending the right signals in those and that you are getting at least on a regular basis, some feedback whether it's positive or negative. And then some dialogue about those suggestions that you have, especially when they're in the human resources realm of expertise. And I think you're looking at one particular moment in time or one particular project even, can certainly not tell the whole story. So we just want to look over a period of time and see what that is.
Amber Clayton:
And so for those who don't get invited to participate in the meetings or in projects, what would you suggest for them?
Susan Gygax:
I think influence is something that's such an interesting idea and it's something that's so difficult to wrap our brains around. That I think it's really important that if you're not being invited and if it's not your normal comfort zone to maybe ask to be invited, I think you have to go to somebody that you trust at work and let them know that there's something that you'd like to be invited, to be a part of and become. I know in my own experience I've had that happen. I was really excited. I heard about a project that was in the talent management function and I really wanted to be a part of it. And I wasn't asked to be a part of it. And I had it in the back of my head that I would be asked. And so I went to the person and I said, "Gosh, given these couple of areas, I'm a little surprised that I wasn't involved in some of the forming of the objectives of this particular project."
And their simple answer was, "You're too busy. I just thought you were too busy." And the next thing that she said was, "We'd love to have you on the project." So, in my mind, I was feeling very left out frankly, and made me not appreciated from my area of expertise. And from her perspective, she was just being mindful that I had a large team and we had a lot going on and she knew my days were long already and didn't want to add anything else to my plate. So that was a really powerful lesson for me to not make assumptions when we're not asked, but to, if it's something that we really care about or if it's something that we know we can add value to. It's okay to raise our hand or ask the question and at least get clarity about maybe why we weren't invited to that particular project.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. And that's actually happened to me as well, where I thought I should have been included in something and I wasn't. And I did, I was guilty of making those assumptions as to, why I wasn't included in that particular meeting. Was it because the person who was leading it didn't like me, or maybe I'm too, try to take control, who knows? But yeah. I like the not making assumptions because I think that many of us are guilty of making assumptions very often in our roles. And, as you said previously, it's important to ask the questions. So when you gain greater influence, what does that do for someone in their career or in their life?
Susan Gygax:
Yeah. So I think, it's really powerful to understand where we are and then what specific steps we can take to build it. And then as we build it, it gives us the opportunity to continue to build and expand. And frankly, I think it does two really important things. One, it gives us insights into our organization, that can really be powerful when we're making decisions on policies or processes or practices that will be rolled out to an organization. So by building those relationships and having that rapport and sitting in on projects, in different things, we see our areas of influence expand. Those insights are really, I think, powerful. And I think the second thing it does, is it can really give us options. So, I'll speak for myself. I've had several jobs in my career. I typically stay at my employers for several years, but I can say it, at every single employer, I saw my areas of influence expand, which just gave me more options either to stay and grow with my employer, which I did in several instances.
And then in other instances, I took all of that and I was able to grow my career. And I think that influences really helps us with both of those things, really making a difference where we are, but then also giving us an opportunity to explore other things, should they come up. Or sometimes unfortunately with all the changes happening in our economy, nowadays, sometimes decisions are made for us. And we rely on those areas where we're able to build our influence to give us options outside of maybe where we were.
Amber Clayton:
And we're coming up on the end of our show. Is there anything else that you think our listeners could learn from influence, leading and influencing without a title?
Susan Gygax:
I think there's one area that we haven't talked about much, and I want to mention it here. And I hope it makes sense because I do think it's very powerful. And we often in human resources, strive to do the right thing well, all the time, but the reality is we make mistakes. We blow it sometimes unintentionally, either something simple as misspeaking somebody's name or, missing a report or missing a deadline or in talent acquisition, if you worked so hard to hire somebody and the negotiation didn't go well. That's just heartbreaking, especially when they're a more senior person, but sometimes mistakes happen, things happen. And I think we're human, exactly as part of that human experience. But one of the most powerful ways we can continue to develop our influence at work is embracing those mistakes when they happen.
And it can feel counterintuitive to want to do that. But if you think about a time, maybe somebody came to you and they apologized for a mistake that they made or something that happened or back to those assumptions. If we think about a moment when somebody apologized to us or acknowledged a mistake that they made, did it raise or lower our opinion of them? I think typically it raises our opinion of them. And I think that being willing to sort of acknowledge it, apologize for it if that's appropriate, but then learning from it. I think that's one of the most powerful things we can do in order to continue to develop that influence, because we all make mistakes. And it can be difficult sometimes to say, "Oh my goodness, we blew it." Because we're used to being in a position to get it right. But I think that's the last thing I would say, just as we're wrapping up here, that being willing to embrace those moments when they do happen can really be powerful.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. Absolutely. Learn from them and grow from them.
Susan Gygax:
That's right. That's right. Exactly.
Amber Clayton:
So if our listeners want to connect with you or reach out to you, how can they find you online?
Susan Gygax:
They can find me at spectacletalentpartners.com. I have a option there, they can book a call with me, if they want to talk about talent acquisition, if they want to grow and develop their internal teams or help their recruiters really grow and develop in the ways that they are recruiting. Talent acquisition, like the rest of human resources, I think is going through a phenomenal change. And I think talent acquisition is going to continue to really have to mature quickly in ways that we haven't done before. So yeah. I welcome all calls and communication about all things, talent acquisition.
Amber Clayton:
Well, great. Well, I really appreciate you being here today. The information was very valuable and I hope our listeners enjoyed it. We've actually come to the end of our show. Thank you all for listening. If you haven't already please subscribe. So you'll never miss an episode and be sure to rate and review the show wherever you listen to podcast. And if you'd like to learn more about the honest HR podcast about myself or the other host, or to get additional information and resources on what was discussed in today's episode, head on over to shrm.org/honesthr to learn more about other SHRM podcasts, check out shrm.org/podcast. As a reminder today was part one of our mini series on leadership and navigation. This podcast is approved to provide re-certification PDCs, but only if you listen to the full mini series. Thank you again for joining us on Honest HR, we look forward to being here again soon.