Callie talks to Katie about professional development and the importance of failure, Katie tells Callie how her boss asked her to be "an empathetic, discerning human being" in her role.
Callie talks to Katie about professional development and the importance of failure, Katie tells Callie how her boss asked her to be "an empathetic, discerning human being" in her role.
Callie Zipple:
Hey everyone. And welcome back to Honest HR. This is Callie Zipple coming at you as your host. We're back with another episode and we're talking in an honest and authentic way about all things HR. Whether you're first time listener to the podcast or you've been with us since the beginning, we're happy you're here. As a reminder, our topics and guests change with every episode. So if you find that today's episode doesn't speak to you in a way that you were hoping we respect that, but hope you'll come back for future episodes where we'll do new guests and new topics that we hope resonate with you.
Today, I'm joined with Katie Powers and we'll be talking about the importance of professional development and how it impacts our careers and why it's important to focus on for all of us, not only in HR, but at any point and in any industry in our career. Katie is currently the director of human resources with Path Forward and as a SHRM SCP certified individual. I'll let her tell you a little bit about her experience and her company in a moment, but the reason I'm so excited for her to join me today is because she actually reached out to us to express interest in being part of what we're doing here at Honest HR. Katie found our podcast and our website and was proactive in connecting with us to say, "Development is important." And so I'm excited that we have somebody on that is energized and passionate about this topic, and I'm hopeful that our listeners get that out of today's conversation. So Katie, welcome. And thanks for being here. Before we just into the topic of development, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're currently doing for Path Forward.
Katie Powers:
Sure. Thank you, Callie. I'm very happy to be here. This is really exciting. So I do not have a traditional HR story or path, for that matter. I actually have a fine arts degree. I have been in a couple of different industries before I landed in my current role and current company, but the common thread for me, funny enough, has always been finding myself within entrepreneurial environments and being able to help build things that weren't there before. So I always try to correlate that and justify my fine arts degree that I need that creativity and drive. And that that's what I've been able to use that degree for.
But I served in two non HR roles before I moved into an HR manager role here at Path Forward and I actually took over HR responsibilities from a director who was wearing multiple hats. HR wasn't his primary focus. At the time we were a company of about 60. We were providing IT and consultative managed services. And we were growing the business. We were adding a contact center offering and obviously HR is an incredibly important facet. When you are adding employees, we were doing a lot of hiring and that's basically what I started in as is really focusing in on that contact center. And at the same time that we were hiring, I was trying to build my HR knowledge because I hadn't had a formal HR role before.
It was a lot of work. It was exciting. It was stressful. But almost five years later in that specific role and almost seven years with the company, we're just over 280 employees. Like you said, I'm in the HR director role. I earned that certification about three years ago and it's been quite a journey but here I am. And I love that story mainly because it resonates so much with me because I didn't have a... Well, I did have a HR path once I graduated from college. But when I started college, I didn't know HR was going to be where I landed. And so I definitely identify with your sort of not known path if you will.
Callie Zipple:
The other thing I wanted to mention too, is when we were chatting about your experience at Path Forward, you mentioned that in the last five years or so, HR has become very important to your organization. And to have you turn that around from not necessarily having someone with HR specifics as their role to having an organization value HR is really cool and love to hear that from you.
Katie Powers:
Absolutely. So I think that part was also unconventional. And I also attribute that to it's the ownership, it's the leadership of the company. Like you said, really placing value on that. And they did specifically say because, of course, I'm having this conversation with them about, the president was like, "What do you think about Katie Powers, director of HR?" And I'm like, "Are you serious?" Again, I didn't have formal training. I had dabbled in those other industries, but to go right into this HR role, it was just this interesting proposal. But what he told me in that conversation was that what was important to him was that he felt that I understood the culture and I understood the value of the people, that was what was important. And that that's what he wanted me to focus on.
And that has been a continuous thesis throughout my years here. No matter what I've absorbed from the HR side, but he followed it up with, "We will support you in getting the training that you need for the HR piece." But it always went back to, "I don't need you to be this HR guru. I need you to be a empathetic, discerning human being that values our culture and values people." And I do. That is a very, I feel like, an evolved way of thinking. And that's why I do feel very lucky that I am where I am because they invested in me, believed in me as a person in the role.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah, that's awesome. That's so great. I'm so jealous. But anyways, during our initial conversations as well, you touched on how important it is to be a continuous learner. And I'm putting words in your mouth a little bit because you didn't use that exact phrase, but you did say that committing to developing yourself is important. So why do you think that's so important, not only for you and the path that you took, but for our listeners out there who maybe are looking to do some additional development in their careers?
Katie Powers:
Absolutely. I think it comes down to that it's important when you're given an opportunity that you have to lean into it with everything you have. So whether it's you get started as an HR assistant or I got to jump ahead to this HR manager role, the title doesn't really mean anything without the results. So for me, it's the momentum for your career is what that development piece is. And that's why it's so important because it's like, "Yeah, you get the title, you get the opportunity. But you're the one that decides what to do with it." And to me, I feel like the development piece is how you get to that.
Callie Zipple:
And I would agree wholeheartedly and I feel like there are sometimes and some individuals that get to a certain point in their career or a certain point in their role and they just stop growing. And I think sometimes that's because our organizations don't give us the budget or the opportunity to continue growth and continue learning in that role. But I think, for me, it's important for us in HR to never get to that place of complacency. I've seen it so often. I was just talking to a friend of mine who's also in HR the other day who said that she was talking to somebody at a different company who was an HR director or maybe even a VP of HR and in talking about some strategic things with that individual, it sounded like she had never done strategic HR work before.
And so you're right when you say it doesn't have to do with the title, it has to do with what you've committed to the role and what you are taking away from that role and bringing to that role really. So I definitely agree with that.
Katie Powers:
And I think you can even break it down further because it's like, "Okay, that sounds great, Katie, I get it, go guns hot, get the opportunity, give it all you've got." But what does that actually mean? And for me, when I've been reflecting on what I've gone through, I break it down into almost three pillars where it's, yes, you've got to do the training. That's important. You need the foundational knowledge. And I think that that's what I was really focused on when I first got into the role. But it's not just that. You have to also have the experience. And I don't mean, "Oh, I've been in this role for three years." I don't mean tenure. I mean the actual I did an investigation, I conducted a termination conversation, but you actually get to do it.
And then the third thing that I really have thought about a lot lately is failure and not just, "Oh yeah, I've made a ton of mistakes." But just how have you handled the failures that you've had? Have you handled them with grace and thoughtfulness and a sense of urgency? Have you been able to improve yourself because of them and worn them as a badge of honor? Because, to me, I mean the mistakes that I've made have really, I think, built me and propelled me forward because I've learned from them and every time I've made one, I've never made the mistake again, which is huge. And I was talking yesterday [inaudible 00:10:14]...
Callie Zipple:
Define it.
Katie Powers:
Sorry, go ahead.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah, absolutely. I was talking to some HR individuals yesterday too. And one of them was talking about how she's been with this organization and this company and her team actually for quite some time. And that they have recently decided that they need to define the roles of their team better to allow for the higher individuals on the team to focus on that strategic piece of HR. So I think that's another thing too. If you're on a team and your team doesn't really understand where they should be focusing their time, that takes away from the individuals at the top of that team who are probably committing more time than they should to some of those less strategic and more administrative and operational tasks. So that was another interesting thing I thought of yesterday when I was having some conversations.
Katie Powers:
Well that's really funny that you mention that because we have actually had very similar conversations in the last month. And funny enough, we actually just developed a swim lane diagram for the HR department because exactly as you just articulated, I get pulled into things where I really shouldn't but it might just be because I'm interjecting myself, I overhear a conversation, or I am within earshot. So maybe a member of my team is like, "Well, I'm just going to ask Katie." But that is so true. And we are actually trying the swim lane document to really visualize that as a group and honor that as you were pointing out. So that's really funny that you mentioned that because that's a similar struggle for us as well.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah, it's a struggle for everybody who has worked with teams. I think that the individual I'm thinking said that her team has been together for 19 years. And so when you're together for 19 years, you absolutely fall into something that's comfortable. And I think that was where her, "We need to do something a little bit different. We need to do some definitions and role explanations and things like that." So I found that really interesting given that we were going to be having this conversation today. My next question for you, and we talked about this a little bit as well and I know that you're going to mention some of your SHRM experience when I ask you this question, but I'm looking for some information from you about how you identify the various development opportunities that you seek out and that share with your team and your manager when looking for some additional opportunities.
Katie Powers:
Sure. So I think that it has a lot to do with whatever the season is that you are in. So like I mentioned before, when I first started, my focus was truly where can I get that foundational knowledge to just affirm, set the stage, make sure I'm comfortable? I was doing a lot of going through and auditing and templating everything. So again, it was foundational. So I went to actually a local organization and did a lot of HR management training. And as I started to go through, and those were offsite classes, which was fantastic because even though it was insane here, I could go offsite for two hours twice a week, but that was what I needed in the beginning. And it allowed me to start drawing career paths for my future team as well, because they actually do exactly that when they come on, they start as an HR assistant, they go to an HR assistant class, they do those foundational classes I did, they move on to SHRM CP training, sit for that exam, pass that exam. So it's really neat.
So, again, I think it depends on your season. It depends on what you need to focus on and also what the organization might need at that time. And then I think that it helps to have it as a holistic plan when you're trying to present what you're needing to your manager or the owner.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah. And I would agree with all of that. And I think we also need to find ways to not lose or maybe reinvigorate our passions too. So I think the fundamentals is super important and when you find a fundamental seminar or event that works for you guys, you should absolutely stick with it. But when you're looking more for that passion awakeness. I have to do this, and I know that I work for SHRM but I'm going to do it anyways, when I attended SHRM for the first time as a young HR professional, not that I'm... I am still young, I'll always be young, but when I was younger in the HR profession and went to SHRM annual, I left that conference feeling more passion for HR than I walked in with.
And I just want everybody to realize that finding and being surrounded by people who are passionate for HR is huge. And you can get that from SHRM annual. But I mean, I got that from the SHRM Indiana, the HR Indiana conference, that was just a couple weeks ago. They had some wonderful speakers that actually made me cry in front of people I don't know, which was different for me, but finding that passion and finding some opportunities to leave things feeling woke, if you will, is also something that I find to be really important.
Katie Powers:
Yeah, 100%, because I think we've all been in that phase where you can identify, "I'm starting to slow down. I'm starting to get burnt out." And I agree with you, the SHRM conference this year for me was... I really wasn't expecting to get as, like you were saying, almost that emotional connection. And I got a ton of really cool ideas to implement into our strategic plan, but everything I sat through, it went back to the people. Which obviously that's a passion driven thing where it just reminds you of your purpose of like, "Oh yeah, the human and human resources. That's why I'm here. I connect with people. I have empathy." And I went back from that conference and had longer conversations with people, made eye contact more than I normally would.
But I just think that it is, like you're saying, it's a good reminder and it wakes you up and you do need that reset sometimes. And if you can't do that, then all of the speakers that we're at SHRM, I'm totally following them now and looking up previous speeches and things like that because that's what I do throughout the year if I need a little bit of a pick me up, find your favorite speaker and pull them up online. Read a book by one of these individuals.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah, for sure, for sure. So shifting a little bit, I'm going to talk about money because I think that is the most difficult thing people run into when discussing professional development opportunities with their boss. The dreaded, "We don't have the budget," answer or comment. So this is usually where the conversation stops for people. And I think that's when the complacency starts and the, "Well, if they're not going to send me somewhere, I'm not going to be able to grow. So I might as well just do my job the same way I've done it year after year and day after day." So what tips do you have for people who hear this comment on the regular?
Katie Powers:
I would say your pitch has to be thoughtful. And I think that's what I have experience in presenting things that I want to do is that if I have obviously taken time to review it and meaningfully put it together, a document that articulates why I think this is important, that goes so far. One of the owners that I presented the SHRM conference to, I mean, she is our CFO, she's incredibly intelligent. She is really good with numbers. And I know that she's going to know more about anything that I bring to her than I will because she does the research. She does the work. So it always builds it up for me where I'm like, "All right, I better have it together and make sure that I've done my homework."
And I think that people appreciate that but it's also just, "Is it logical? Did you make a case for what this is going to do for you, for your team, for the organization?" And I think it's important, even though it's difficult, try not to think about the money, try to articulate, again, what it's going to build upon. And I think if it's logical, it makes sense. And it's going to benefit the employee, benefit the company, then there's nothing to feel ashamed about or scared about.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah. And when we were talking before too, you had made the comment that you've taken the approach to ask for everything and be okay when they say no. So how have you been able to manage the nos?
Katie Powers:
I think that there's a lot of things out there that you can do that aren't thousands of dollars. I, especially I think in the last couple of years, have really gotten into networking and there's so many things locally, especially with vendors might offer a talk or just local things within your city they might offer. I just went to a medical marijuana presentation at Jobs and Family Services. Completely free, great coffee. It was a two hour seminar, awesome information that I needed to know. And I actually networked with a couple of people there. I saw somebody, I knew they invited me to an HR round table.
I'm not even making this up. So helpful and all of that's free and I'll be able to have my team involved in that. So I think the more that I started peeling back the layers, there's so much out there and there are so many people that are passionate and that want to help each other. So I do think that there's other options available, especially when you really start to talk to other people.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah. And I'll tell a story too, talking about no. All though this was not a no, this was just a non conversation because I was too young and naive to actually sit in front of my boss and say, "Hey, can I have some money to go to this really cool SHRM annual conference?" I really wanted to go. And I felt like it was really important to my personal and professional growth. And I had been talking with my parents, and this is embarrassing but funny, they had actually decided to sponsor me. And when I say sponsor, I mean, they gave me like a certificate or a letter or a card. I can't remember what it was, but they did say, "For your sponsorship."
And I just remember calling my parents and being like, "I can't believe you guys are going to sponsor this trip." And I'm crying and they're telling me that they're so proud of me and I'm like, "Oh my God, you're changing my life." And it's corny and embarrassing. And I know my parents listen to this podcast, so they're going to be like, "Callie, stop." But it was so important for me to get that experience. And I wish that I would have had the balls to say to my boss, "Look at how important this is for me." And how much it really is, and I felt like, was changing my life. And had I had that conversation and had that pitch for my boss, I probably wouldn't have to have my parents throw money at me to go to this conference.
But I tell that story mostly because we need to, as HR professionals and young HR professionals, be comfortable with saying, "I want to do this, I think it's important. And here's why here's what I'll benefit from. And here's what our organization will benefit from." And if we can have that conversation in a meaningful way, I think we will hear yes more often than no, but we need to be comfortable and ballsy enough to actually have that conversation with our managers.
Katie Powers:
And another piece to that, I think that I would think most of us are probably in this situation where you're at a huge organization and you might the internal who is supposed to be that internal expert. So it's just me. And I think that that is part of the argument where if I'm going to be the internal HR stakeholder, the HR expert, then I need to define what is needed for success and what the organization needs from me and my team. And maybe this is on that roadmap to get there. So that's why I think it's if you do that larger print of it or the larger outline of it, it's helpful because it's not just this one off, "I want to do this. I want to do that." Sit down and really map it out and show the trajectory for your team and show maybe if there's strategic goals that you've been given, maybe you need these things to achieve those goals.
Callie Zipple:
And you just mentioned something that will take us sort of in the direction I was hoping this would go, but you actually have a team that you manage and that you spend a lot of time with as far as their development is concerned. So how important is it, and do you have any pointers for those individuals who are listening that have direct reports and want to help them succeed and help them develop in their careers?
Katie Powers:
Absolutely. I feel like I think about this way too much because you go through experiences and you have different managers and then you start to think about the manager that you want to be. And then you have to get to know this team of all of these individuals who are all different and everyone gives and receives feedback differently and everyone's motivated differently. So it's always something that is on my mind. But one of the things that has helped me organize this recently, because I've gone through a few times of rebuilding HR where there's been ebbs and flows or people have left or we've had new people start.
So I started a document and I either call it a next steps or I call it a career goals and I try to keep it to one page, but I start with a paragraph on the individual and just where they are and where I see them going. And I actually include in there salary details to just call it out. "This is where you are. This is where you can be." And then I go through and I try to keep it to about three big goals, like three big milestones. And within those milestones are the training that I want to send them to. It includes their, like I said, the SHRM certification, but then it also includes other things that they need to experience or be able to handle. S
So we talked about the swim lane diagram. There's a certain basket of tasks that they need to be able to manage within each of those milestones. But for me it was helpful because it just made things clearer. I feel like it helps them because they have a clear path. They see the investment in themselves and they see the organization investing in them and then we meet on it quarterly and we can adjust the document. We can celebrate their accomplishments. We can make a left turn if it's not what they're wanting and they're wanting to do something else. So I think the organization is key and just really mapping it out for them is helpful.
Callie Zipple:
I agree. And I'll say one more thing, I think, to our listeners. If your manager is sitting there and offering to you professional development opportunities, you should take them. I've had experiences where I've offered professional development opportunities to people. And they said, "Eh, it doesn't really interest me." Or, "I don't really think that that's the direction I want to take my career." And then lo and behold, there's an internal opening and they apply for it. And it's like, "Why would I want to suggest you for a promotion if you're not interested in pursuing some additional opportunities as far as development is concerned?" So I feel so strongly that if a manager's sitting there and saying, "Hey, do you want to learn something different or try something new?" We should take that opportunity as individuals.
So the last thing I want to touch on is so if we're in an organization that really values professional development, and we say, "You know what? We want to take a step in a different direction or up in our career, how can we make sure that the organization we're going to has the same or similar environment for professional development? How can we make sure that we are going to an organization that values development in the same way that the company we're at does so that we're not losing any motion in our professional development opportunities?
Katie Powers:
Yeah, I think that is really hard. And I don't know that I have a fool proof way to do that. But I have thought about this because I do think that I am really lucky where I am, like I said, because of the value that HR holds, but I think that it is business, but it's still a relationship. So for me, I reverse engineer that question and I would think of how I am in interviews for candidates that we hire. And I want to hear and see passion. And I think that when candidates interview with us and they ask about our path or why we are here, I feel like I give a pretty passionate answer. And so I think that with most candidates, it connects with them because they're like, "Okay, this is good. She's really passionate."
My story's not going to be their exact story, but it's the truth of what my experience was. So I do think that's important. And then obviously ask the questions of what do they see for that role? Why is it important to the organization and try to listen to their answers? Is it just a blank response? Do you feel good about it? Can you poke holes in it? And then I also think more specifically you could start to drill down to what kind of a voice does HR have as a decision maker or council or seat at the table. I think that you could provide them with an example.
So a termination request. You could say, "I get a termination request from a manager. Is that something I just immediately do or would you allow me to investigate, provide my recommendation, discuss it, before we make a decision?" Maybe things like that I think you could prompt them with to get, "Do I have a say in this?" Depending on what your position is. But I think it's hard, but for me, I really look for that passion, the honesty. And then again, I think there are some questions that you could ask to try to get the conversation that you need to try and make a decision.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah, I agree. And I think it was Lorena on a previous podcast episode where she said have that conversation in the interview and then make sure that when you get there on day one or within your first month that you're revisiting their answer so that they don't forget what they've promised you as far as development or whatever else it was that you guys talked about during that interview. So I like that piece of advice too. Don't let what they've promised you go away because they may not remember what you talked about in your interview. So if you can keep that in front of them and say, "Hey, remember when we talked about you giving me some opportunities to learn and grow?" So that they don't forget that's something that you're interested in or passionate about.
Katie Powers:
And I think mentioning expectations around certifications, memberships. We belong to SHRM, we belong to a local organization. Those are all paid for by the company. Those are all paid for by the company. So I do think there's other specifics that you can ask and just confirm and again, yep, bring it back up when you start. But it's just the balance between, I think, the tangible and the intangible things.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah, totally agree. Well, thank you for your time today. Those are all the questions and topics that we had talked about in our initial conversation. So is there any final thoughts or words you'd like to share with our listeners?
Katie Powers:
I think just when we're talking about development, I think it is easy to forget about things like patience and audacity in your career. So I would just kind of encourage people listening to just have that audacity to continue to drive for what you want, but then also have the patience for it to happen. One of the things that we always talk about, our president always coaches on this and then I steal it from him, but a career is not built in days. It's not built in weeks. It's not built in months. It takes time and you do have to be patient. So don't overlook the opportunity that you're already in. It's easy to be looking ahead for what you want, which is awesome because we all have dreams and goals. But you really need to stay humble and learn everything you can about what you're doing right now.
Callie Zipple:
I love that. I don't even have anything to add to that except to ask you if people want to connect with you or continue the conversation or pick your brain a little bit more about personal and professional development, how can they reach out?
Katie Powers:
I would be happy to hear from you. I am on LinkedIn, it's probably the best place to find me. And I think if you just search Katie Powers, SHRM SCP, you will find me.
Callie Zipple:
Awesome. Again, thank you for your time. I had a great time talking about professional development. It has me revisiting all the things that I've put on my development goals, and I should probably pull that back out and see how I'm doing against that because that's another thing. We write things down. We have to make sure that we visit it on a regular basis to keep us honest and keep us going in the right direction. So, again, thanks for being here with us and I hope our listeners reach out and continue the conversation with you. If you want to connect with me directly, feel free to reach out on LinkedIn. Don't forget about our SHRM young professionals page, we hear from you there. Or you can reach out to me on Twitter or Instagram at SHRMCallieZ. We post updates about the podcast, including new episodes at sherm.org/honestHR. And you can also find us on iTunes or Spotify or wherever else you listen to your podcasts. So thanks again for coming out to our listeners and we'll see you next time for a new episode of Honest HR. Bye guys.