In this episode of Honest HR, host Amber Clayton is joined by Paula Harvey, SHRM-SCP, vice president of human resources and safety at Schulte Building Systems, to make sense of the Great Resignation's new talent acquisition landscape and discuss how to make your organization turnover-proof.
The pandemic prompted serious reevaluation of what employees expect from their jobs and widespread departures followed. In this episode of Honest HR, host Amber Clayton is joined by Paula Harvey, SHRM-SCP, vice president of human resources and safety at Schulte Building Systems, to make sense of the new talent acquisition landscape and discuss how to make your organization turnover-proof.
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This episode of Honest HR is sponsored by Mystery.
Speaker 1:
This episode is sponsored by Greenhouse. Greenhouse customizes, streamlines and scales the hiring process for organizations of all sizes, helping to reduce bias, source the best talent and create a more structured hiring process so you can hire for what's next. Visit greenhouse.io or search Greenhouse Software to learn more.
Amber Clayton:
Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for all of us HR professionals, people managers and team leads intent on growing and developing our companies for the better. We bring you honest, forward-thinking conversations and relatable stories from the workplace that challenge the way it's always been done because, after all, you have to push back to move forward.
Wendy Fong:
Honest HR is a podcast from SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management. By listening, you're helping create better workplaces and a better world. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Amber Clayton:
I am Gloria Sinclair Miller.
Amber Clayton:
Now let's honest. Hello, everyone, and welcome back. I'm your host, Amber Clayton, director of SHRM's Knowledge Center. On our episode today, we're going to start part one of our miniseries on The Technical Competency, HR Expertise, Talent Acquisition, When Good Hires Become Bad Employees. This podcast is approved to provide PDCs, but only if you listen to the full miniseries.
I've been in HR for over 20 years and, during this time, I hired hundreds of employees with many success stories and many not-so-great ones. I don't think there's anything more disappointing than when someone you thought would be a good hire turns out to be a bad employee. You ask yourself, "What did I miss when I hired them? They seemed like the perfect fit." Today, we're actually going to discuss at a high level why this might happen and how to avoid it.
SHRM's Ask An Advisor service gets tens of thousands of questions a year from members, and many of them are related to employee issues, which is why I brought in two of our experts from the Knowledge Center as guests today. I'm pleased to be joined by Rosa Hardesty and Pattie Graves, HR knowledge advisors.
Thank you both for being here today.
Pattie Graves:
Thank you.
Amber Clayton:
Great, so let's first start by sharing with the audience your backgrounds. I, obviously, know who you are. I've been working with you for several years now. Pattie, could you share with the audience what does the knowledge advisor do for those who are listening who may not be familiar with the Knowledge Center and what you do, and just tell us a little bit about how long you've been with SHRM and your background?
Pattie Graves:
Sure. I'd be happy to. I've been with SHRM for 13 years. I've been in that role as an HR knowledge advisor for that time. Our main focus is to provide guidance to other HR professionals and our members on everyday HR issues and concerns that they might have.
Amber Clayton:
Rosa, how about you?
Rosa Hardesty:
I've been with SHRM for five years and, prior to that, my background was in hospitality, which was really fun. With that, I also had a lot of experience because I moved to quite a few, a handful of different states, so I got to experience a lot of the different changes in state laws along with the hotel industry.
Amber Clayton:
You said that hospitality was fun. Your job here is fun, right?
Rosa Hardesty:
Yes, it is. Yes, it is, of course.
Amber Clayton:
For those of you who may not be aware, I'm the director of the Knowledge Center. Rosa and Pattie work in my department. I'm glad to hear that you think it's fun, or at least I just told you it's fun. Thanks for sharing.
Rosa Hardesty:
No. It definitely is.
Amber Clayton:
Okay. Great. Great. Yeah, as I mentioned, it's disappointing when you think you've hired someone great and then things don't work out. You must feel betrayed because they gave great answers through the interview questions. They were friendly. They were professional. They checked all your boxes, and then, after the offer, they come on board, and then things change and their true selves, or you think it's their true selves, come out and they're not engaged. They just weren't as friendly or professional as they were during the interview process or, the situation where they have, they come in, they say they know something or they have experience with something, and they really don't. They sometimes will make demands for things that really should have been negotiated during the offer stage.
I had an example where someone had worked with us and told us that she could work a given schedule. This wasn't at SHRM. It was a previous job. When she came on board, she said, "Sorry. I can't work that schedule now," and we were like, "Well, wait a minute. You said you could," and then, of course, we had to deal with that. I'm sure that many of our listeners have heard that you shouldn't go by your gut. That's true, but I think sometimes there are some red flags and, as people who are HR professionals, hiring managers, we need to be able to find those red flags or at least see them.
How do we do that? Pattie, what do you think that employers fail to do initially when hiring employees? What should they do when they're trying to find the best candidate for their position?
Pattie Graves:
I believe that workforce planning is critical, and that's a step that is missed the most. In that process, usually, an employer is going to be able to determine what skills are necessary for an employee to be successful in that role, so having those skills decided on, also having a plan in place and then knowing specifically what the job description entails so that it's clearly articulating the key qualities and attributes that are needed for the job.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. It's funny. I can recall working for small employers who did not have job descriptions. Many don't, but I always think it's a good idea so that people have in writing the expectations of their positions. One of the things that I've heard before from people are, "My job description doesn't say that I need to do that," and so that falls under that, quote, other duties as assigned that's often found on the job descriptions. Yeah, it's interesting to know that there are employers that just don't have the job descriptions or have done any kind of workforce planning.
Rosa, where would one go or start to find out how to do this workforce planning process?
Rosa Hardesty:
Yeah. That's a good question. Actually, SHRM has some really good toolkits that are available to our SHRM members that can get someone started in the process especially if you're new to it. I think, as Pattie said, a lot of times, we miss those steps, and the toolkits can be a really good starting point.
Pattie Graves:
We also offer a training course, too, for workforce planning. That might be something that members would be interested in taking to learn more about workforce planning as well.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, and I think that nonmembers may be eligible for that also. That's great, but the point being is that we have resources. I'm sure there are many resources out there with regards to workforce planning and how to get started in that process, but as you said, Pattie and Rosa, it's important to know what you're looking for. If you don't know what you're looking for, you're not going to be able to find that great employee.
Now that our listeners know about they've got to find the right positions, then they're ready to start looking for people, and we know that many employers will just post a job, and you would like to think that, voila, you'll get hundreds of resumes. Some employers do, but, unfortunately, it doesn't always happen where employees or employers will post a job and that perfect candidate just comes walking in the door and they're the first applicant that you get. It's really not that easy, even though we hope it could be. Even during the pandemic, it's been even more of a struggle for employers to find employees and where they post and where they go to find new talent.
When the resume gets in the hands of a recruiter or hiring manager, Rosa, what types of red flags should they look out for?
Rosa Hardesty:
Yes. I think that recruiters, when they're getting the resume, really taking the time to review the resume, and some things that I have seen in the past are employment gaps that are unexplained. I know now we have a lot of candidates coming through that maybe do have shorter employment due to the pandemic and things that happened. Again, I say unexplained employment gaps, patterns, is there someone that's only working in jobs three months at a time, inconsistency with dates, how is it laid out, because that's really they're presenting themselves to you, and that's putting their best foot forward, vague job descriptions, also if there's lots of typos and mistakes in there. Those may be red flags. My favorite one is the unprofessional email.
Amber Clayton:
Oh, tell us about that unprofessional email. I'm curious.
Rosa Hardesty:
I can't recall a specific example, but maybe just sticking to the name and not having inappropriate words in your email address maybe.
Amber Clayton:
Oh, okay. Yes. It reminded me of, if I can remember, some that I received that had the word "sexy" in it, and I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, why didn't they change their email address or use something different? When I was younger, I was just out of college, and I had roommates and we put a funny voicemail message on our answer machine. I could remember looking for a job thinking, "Ooh, I've got to change that," because I don't think that they'll want to hear the theme of the Three's Company on our voicemail. It wasn't email. It was the voicemail at the time, but that I guess shows my age. Let's say that everything does look great on paper and you decide to bring them in for an interview, what can employers do to ensure that their candidate is the right one for the job?
Pattie Graves:
Yeah. First, don't rely on your gut. You have to hire on facts. An employer needs to be having a structured interview process, using behavioral questions to determine who's the right candidate. Also, don't sugarcoat or lie to what the job really entails so a candidate really knows what is expected of them.
Amber Clayton:
For the listeners who may not be familiar with this, can you just tell them what is the behavioral interview question?
Pattie Graves:
Well, those are questions that are going to try to determine if an employee has work examples where they would be able to effectively do the job. They have the experience that would allow them to have that trait that you're looking for for the right candidate.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. I used to hear also that it's those questions that get answers that are not the yes or no questions. Those are easy, those open-ended questions. That's right.
Rosa Hardesty:
Well, and I really think that you can see in the answer if they've had that experience. They're not struggling. They can pinpoint something that happened in their career. For example, can you tell me about a stressful situation that happened at work or a project, things like that that can really help get a feel if they've had that experience.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. What about other peer interviews? I know for us in the Knowledge Center, we do peer interviews, if you will, for the knowledge advisors. We have our applicants do a job preview so that they could see what the job is about, and that's with another knowledge advisor. What has been your experience either doing those here with SHRM or outside of SHRM with your other employers?
Pattie Graves:
Well, I've done that in other companies where we did peer interviews. We also did group interviews. Those help to have more eyes on who's going to be the best hire. It's less likely to have issues when you have more individuals that are looking for those same character traits that are going to be important for that job.
Amber Clayton:
How about you, Rosa?
Rosa Hardesty:
I think having that hands-on experience, the job preview is really important because sometimes it can't be explained in an interview, and then that candidate can really get a feeling for what they can expect. Like you said, it's really important to be transparent. I think a lot of times where employers go wrong is they want this candidate so badly, but it could be that they're not the right fit, too, so you want the agreement on both sides that this is the right fit.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. Absolutely. I'm sure our listeners who've heard our podcast before have heard me say this, but I give the candidates the good, the bad and the ugly. I'd tell you all to do the same thing if you are doing a shadow with them, because I really want them to make an informed decision about working for us just as we're making an informed decision about them working for us. We have to be the right employer for them as well. It could be disappointing for them and for us if they leave a job that they've been with for a long time and come on board and decide this really isn't the right fit for them. I do agree that it shows them what the job is.
I also find, too, that they become very comfortable with the person that they're doing the shadow with, a little bit more comfortable than they would be in an interview, and so then we're able to find out additional information just based on questions or conversations that they've had sure with the person that they're doing the job interview with or a job preview with.
Just on the peer interview or shadow job interview, however you want to call it, be careful not to have that individual working because you will have to pay them. That's a tricky thing. They're really supposed to just be there watching, observing, asking questions, sharing that information with the peer who they're doing the job preview with. I can remember a company I worked for, and the owner wanted to have not one, but two job shadows with two different people, which was a lot of time for the applicant. I didn't necessarily agree with that, but this is what the owner wanted, and he wanted them to work, and I said, "No. No. No. They're not there to work. They're there to just observe and make sure that this is the right fit for them."
We did. We had people who would call us back and say, "I want to be paid for those two shifts that I worked there," even though it was supposed to be just a job preview. That was a bit of a struggle for me in that position, but we did work it out with legal counsel and how we could make sure that people were not working and were not paid for that particular time. We actually were able to scale back and not have them stay so long, because they actually stayed about eight hours each time, which was way too much.
Pattie Graves:
Wow. That's a lot.
Amber Clayton:
That's a reason why we had a high turnover originally before I started working there. What about the culture? How do you share that with the applicants or how do you know if they're a good cultural fit?
Rosa Hardesty:
I think the way someone's interacting with the interviewee, also during the job preview, that can come out. I think it's just through the communication and what they're asking. Someone that's not saying much probably isn't going to be a fit.
Amber Clayton:
What do you think, Pattie?
Pattie Graves:
Seeing if a candidate has those character traits that fit well within the organization already, so do they have what aligns with the company's values and guiding principles that are already established? Usually, you could probably get that from talking with the candidate, just like what Rosa was stating, to see if they would like working at the company.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think, too, the reasoning for someone taking a job or applying for a position is another good indicator as to whether or not this is someone who would be a good fit or if they're just looking for something to tide them over until they're able to find the job that they really want. I'm sure many of our listeners have had that situation where someone has applied and they sell themselves to the organization and they say how much they want to work for the company, but then there's other indicators. It maybe something, what they said about their five-year, 10-year goals or what their interests are that are different than what the job actually entails, and then that's when I tend to start asking additional questions to just make sure that this is what they're looking for long term.
For instance, with the knowledge advisor role, I will share that there's not a lot of opportunity to move up within the department per se, and so, if someone comes in and they say, "Well, I want to be a VP within a year of employment," I can say to them, "Well, not necessarily in this particular department. However, there may be opportunities elsewhere within the company." You really have to make sure that you're listening in on some of those answers and some of the things that they say and ask those follow-up questions to make sure that the job is right for them and they're right for us.
Let's just say you decided on this one and you want to get them in as quickly as possible because we know nowadays, and even before, people want people fast, as quickly as they can for the most part. What steps do employers often miss when trying to get a job filled too quickly? What do you think, Pattie?
Pattie Graves:
Well, let's see, not recruiting for the actual skill, but focusing more on experience, so making sure that you're doing that, not making offers contingent upon background checks and reference checks, making sure they're doing their due diligence to check on the candidate first and make sure that person is the right hire, looking for behaviors that would hinder a good working environment, going back to what some of those things, those red flags, making sure that we're looking at that. Yeah.
I get members a lot of times that call in and they will say, "Well, we want to rescind the offer," and it's after the offer's already been extended to an employee, and they are doing it based on some information they found that could have been determined before extending that offer or having that contingent offer at least in place to allow that.
Amber Clayton:
It's interesting. I was listening to a radio show on my way to work, and they were talking about a situation where someone had taken a job. They had relocated, and the employer decided to rescind the offer. I wanted to call in so badly because the DJ was saying, "They can't do that." Of course, as an HR professional, I'm listening to people calling in and giving advice that was not appropriate. I held back though. I did not call. I almost wanted to, but I didn't. I think what some people may not know is that, when you rescind offers, that could be a legal risk for the employer, depending on the situation. There's something called promissory estoppel where, if someone has made a promise of something, so in a case where they have left their job, they've been promised to get a certain job, a certain pay, starting a certain date, and they've had a financial issue as a result of making the change based on that promise, then they could potentially sue the employer under the promissory estoppel and the employer may have to pay.
Rescinding offers is risky. I know that we at SHRM have information regarding that, but we usually tell employers or members to review the information that we provide, but also check with legal counsel just to see what the risks are in their particular situation. Every situation is different, and that's something that employers need to look at. Let's talk about that other duties as assigned that I mentioned. What does that mean? Does it mean that my employer can tell me to do anything and I have to do it, Rosa?
Rosa Hardesty:
An employer can have... generally will have job duties that are pretty detailed or can hit onto the major parts of a job and then, those other duties, an employer can really ask an employee to do things that are generally related to the position, but it doesn't limit to... For example, when I worked in the hotel industry when we had what was called all-hands-on-deck and the front office agents were assigned to come help in the banquet hall, and that was relative because that was what was happening and we needed that assistance. An employer can ask an employee to do different duties, but from an employee relations' standpoint, they're going to want to stay on point to what is relative to that job.
Amber Clayton:
Pattie, any additional thoughts?
Pattie Graves:
I think that an employer can pretty much ask anything that's due for the business as long as it's not illegal, you're not asking an employee to be put in harm's way or in danger. If they need someone to dump the trash and that's not in your job duties, that would be something that would be part of that all duties as assigned.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, I guess it depends on how they're dumping the trash, right? We don't want to if they're not in a... if they have to do something that's not a safety issue, as Rosa mentioned. I feel like, within the last year, we've all had those other duties as assigned. Just with the pandemic and all of the various projects and things that we've worked on, I think all of us can say that we've definitely done more than our job descriptions, but I don't know that I say no too often to anything that I have to do unless it, like you said, it was not safe. If it was illegal, if it's unethical, those might be times where I might say, "No. Sorry. I'm not going to be willing to do that."
Let's talk about hiring, because I know in my career, I've been in HR for over 20 years, and I was responsible for hiring in most of my positions, and I can remember hiring for positions that I had no idea what those jobs actually were. I was young and didn't really know what questions to ask of the managers. I was just at the time given the job description and the hours and the pay and said, "Fill this job." What has been your experience? I know, just for myself, that does not work. The person who is hiring, who's recruiting, they really need to know what that job is about so they could speak to it accurately and clearly to the potential candidate. Have you had something similar?
Pattie Graves:
I have in certain positions where, like on the manufacturing floor when I was working for a manufacturer and not knowing actually what the employees did, I would observe and look and see, watch what their job entailed and then also working with the hiring manager to go over what, "Give me a run-by of what an employee does on a day-to-day basis," just to get a better feel of what the job entailed.
Rosa Hardesty:
I have had a similar experience. I think, if you're a recruiter, it really is your job to go and find out what you're hiring for. It doesn't mean you have to be an expert on it, but, like Pattie said, go to the manufacturing for... I was in hotels, so I went up to the rooms to find out what are the room attendants doing? What are the stewards doing? I think, too, you'll find that the employees appreciate that and which leads to them also giving you referrals for your hires. Bonding with the staff and showing them that you care about who you're bringing in I think is important.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. Absolutely. Those referrals are important. Many employers do have those employee referral programs especially now with what we're calling the resignation tsunami or turnover tsunami and that difficulty in recruiting talent right now. So many employers are actually using those employee referral programs, and they could be great just as long as you're not hiring one demographic over the other. You have to be careful about discrimination issues when you're bringing people into the organization who happen to be friends of one person or family members of one person, things like that. You want to make sure that it's in compliance with your company's policies for one, but also not creating any kind of discrimination issues.
Yeah, so let's talk about interviewing. We know that some people are really good at interviews and some people are not. I know that I've interviewed several people who, when they came to the interview, they were chewing gum during the interview process. It was very unprofessional, their demeanor, even though they were giving great answers. I've had people who were so nervous that they were almost tongue tied, but they were great people. It's just that they were nervous in that process. How do you differentiate between the ones who will be good employees and the ones who might not be the right fit when it comes to the interviews?
Pattie Graves:
Well, I think going back to those behavioral interview questions is going to be helpful in this part, so not so much relying on what the actions that you're seeing from an employee, but relying more on their experience, what they would have to offer in looking at those areas.
Amber Clayton:
How about you, Rosa?
Rosa Hardesty:
This is a tough one. I feel like are there things that they're doing that really are deal breakers? I mean it might depend on what the job is. If it's a job that entails a lot of stress and they can't even do an interview, maybe they wouldn't be the right candidate. Sometimes, I think there is a little bit of digging in there. Maybe you are telling them to take the gum out during the interview and they say, "I'm so sorry. I'm so nervous." Is there a point during that interview where you can help to make them comfortable, say, "Oh, my gosh, I'm sorry that you're not feeling comfortable. What can we do to make this a better experience?" That way, you can start asking the questions. Is it where they're sitting or maybe changing? "Hey, let's go outside."
I think that maybe we can help the interviewee since it is easy to be on our side asking the questions. We've all been there. I remember my first time interviewing, and I was an absolute mess. I was lucky enough to have someone to give me a few pointers to help me have a better interview, too, so I think it really depends.
Amber Clayton:
I think that's good advice. I know that when candidates come in or they have come in other positions that I've worked in over the years, I have said to them, or they've said to me, "Oh, I'm nervous," or they said, "I want to make sure that I'm making a good impression." If I notice that they seem nervous, I'll just make them a little bit more relaxed and speak to them in a way that is just more conversational like we're speaking right now. Like you said, I have moved from outside my desk and maybe sat at a round table where we might be a little bit closer together and having a conversation versus me sitting across this big desk at this individual. Yeah. I think there's definitely things that we as hiring managers and recruiters can do to make sure that the applicants feel comfortable during the interview process.
I've also found, too, that bringing them in for a second interview, sometimes they're a little bit more relaxed after the first interview and then they start to come out of their shell a little bit more during the second interview because now they're familiar with where the building is, where their parking is, all of those things that you get nervous about when you go to do an interview. Am I going to find the right person, the right room?
I can remember I was parked on the side of a street, and it was meter parking, and my interview was going past the two hour limit, and I was so afraid. In the middle of the interview, I had to say to them, "I'm parked on the street. I just want to make sure my car doesn't get towed," and they actually allowed me to go down and move my car and come back up to finish the interview. There's things that we can do to help that situation. I wouldn't decline someone right off the bat just because they were nervous during an interview, unless, like you said, Rosa, it's a stressful job, that might not be a good quality to have if they're very nervous.
Rosa Hardesty:
You know what else gets bad interviews? It's when the candidate brings in their family or their friends and there's five people. It happens all the time in hotels. I'm like, "Can you guys wait outside? We're going to have a conversation."
Amber Clayton:
Keeping in mind that, if it's someone who has a disability and may need an accommodation, that they may need somebody there with them.
Rosa Hardesty:
True. I don't think it was though.
Amber Clayton:
You've got to be careful. Maybe they were a congratulatory group that, when they came out of the interview, if they got the job, they would be there to cheer them on or to hug them if it didn't go well.
Rosa Hardesty:
Okay, Amber.
Amber Clayton:
They're a support group.
Rosa Hardesty:
Or a friend group. Yes.
Amber Clayton:
Or a helicopter parent. You remember the helicopter parents that would go to the job interviewing?
Rosa Hardesty:
Yes. I would get calls from the parents as to, "Why didn't you hire?" I'm like, "Who am I talking to right now?" I had no idea that it was about a candidate.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. I've had that same thing where a parent has called-
Rosa Hardesty:
Just yelling at me.
Amber Clayton:
... and said, "Why didn't you hire my child?" Isn't that amazing?
Pattie Graves:
I've even had that, when they come in, "Why did you terminate my child?" Yeah, I had a mother meet me after work at night, yes, waiting for me to get off work. Yeah.
Amber Clayton:
Oh, my goodness gracious. Did that end well?
Pattie Graves:
Yes, it did, but she was screaming and upset, and I was like, "You don't know the whole story. You don't know what took place. You're only hearing one side of the story."
Rosa Hardesty:
Right, of course, the kid's not going to tell his mom what happened.
Pattie Graves:
Right.
Amber Clayton:
Wow.
Pattie Graves:
Yeah, it did end okay.
Amber Clayton:
That's a little scary though to be confronted with someone.
Pattie Graves:
At night, yeah, and when you're walking out. Yeah.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, at night. Yeah. Great. Rosa and Pattie, what experiences have you had where you've interviewed someone and you hired them, and then they became that bad employee that we talked about. They were problematic. What were the red flags or, in retrospect, what could you have identified or what would you have asked of them, and what was the situation?
Rosa Hardesty:
Anytime, when I'm thinking back, it's usually when we needed someone really quickly, which is a standard thing in hospitality. Sometimes, there's high turnover. We need someone. We need someone.
Amber Clayton:
A warm body, that's what they used to say.
Rosa Hardesty:
A warm body, yes. We need a warm body. I mean, as a recruiter, you cringed when you heard that term, but when you're working with multiple departments, there was... You're being pulled in different directions, rushing through the interview process, not asking. Schedules were a big thing because it's a 24/7 operation, so not really listening to the candidate when they maybe said they weren't available during certain times. What would happen was we'd look at the experience and be like, "Great. They have hotel experience," and then just not go through all the candidates, too, not really evaluating or giving it the time. We're rushing on the front end of it and then spending more time on the long term because, if anyone has had a bad hire, you're coaching and counseling, retraining because they're not the right fit, so asking specific questions and those behavioral questions about the experience that they had.
I think it's really clear when you take the time on the front end whether someone has done the job or not. It was more of the rushing that led to those hire... I hate saying bad hires, but hires that weren't the right fit.
Amber Clayton:
Yes, and I think the rushing part is it happens often. Like I said before, we're so quick to want to get someone in the door that we don't take a moment to really think about what was said, their experience, their knowledge, everything in the interview process to determine whether or not that person is the right fit because we just want to get that person in the door quickly.
Rosa Hardesty:
With that also, too, is not listening to the candidate, where the recruiter is so gung-ho on, "I got to fill it. I got to fill it." They're doing so much more talking. They probably don't even remember what the candidate said. That can be something that happens, too.
Amber Clayton:
Yes, I'm guilty of that.
Rosa Hardesty:
I know. Me, too.
Amber Clayton:
I know that's terrible. I do try to actively listen, but sometimes, and it depends on who I'm speaking with, if they're talking in a monotone voice, I tend to just drift off and I don't hear what they're saying, and that's terrible, but I admit it. I that's what I do sometimes. If you all ever see me at work and I drift off, you know what's happening.
How about you, Pattie? Have you had an experience like this?
Pattie Graves:
Yes, I've had plenty.
Amber Clayton:
Plenty. Too many. You've had too many.
Pattie Graves:
I've had too many. I was in retail, and I have the same experience that Rosa had where you were always understaffed and you were always trying to recruit. Probably 80% of my day was recruiting and just continuously interviewing, so I think not listening and paying attention to actually the questions that I was giving and what those answers were. I would've made better choices had I not been rushed and trying to fill the quota, just paying attention more to what actually I needed.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah. You reminded me. I used to work for Heck's Department Stores. It's not around anymore, so I think I could talk about it. I can remember I was an HR assistant. The process at the time was you interview them on the spot and, if the divisional manager was available to do a second interview, they could actually be hired on the spot. That was to get them in there as quickly as we could. As you can imagine with that type of a process, we were so fast that we didn't pay attention. We ended up having a lot of people coming in and a lot of people going out, so it definitely did not work. Maybe it worked to get them in there quickly, but then we spent a lot of time onboarding, training and then having them leave shortly after because they just weren't the right fit for the job.
Rosa Hardesty:
Even think about that for the candidate's standpoint, they don't even have... they'll say, yes, but they don't even have time to process what's happened to see if they have an emotional connection to the job or... so that would be really hard.
Amber Clayton:
Well, and I do have to share one more funny thing about this job. Before I started working at Heck's in HR, I can remember going in for... I was shopping and I decided to fill out an application. At the time, again, my age, they did not... They had paper applications in the room, and I filled out the application not knowing that I was actually going to be interviewed on the spot while I was shopping. I was wearing jeans and a T-shirt, and I had my bags. All of a sudden, I was asked to sit and stay for an interview. I interviewed with the HR manager, and I was not selected to move forward with the position. I was disappointed by that. I was not told why, as many people are not told why they were not selected, but, well, there was a part where he said something about me wearing jeans and said, "You should not have come in jeans for the interview," and I said, "I didn't know that I was going to be interviewed."
I never forgot that, and then, later, I decided to apply again, and that gentleman was not there any longer. He was at a different store. I was hired to work in handbags and accessories and then I moved into HR. When I became an HR manager like him and I saw him at a meeting, I said, "Do you remember me?" and he didn't, of course, because they interviewed a lot of people. I said, "I was the one that you said shouldn't have come in jeans and you didn't move forward with me. Isn't that funny that we're at the same level right now?" It was my, "You should have overlooked the fact that I was in jeans and moved forward with me," but again there could have been another reason. It wasn't the right time maybe.
Rosa Hardesty:
Well, and that shows the communication, too. Why didn't whoever took your application say, "Hey, she was shopping. I figured, since she was here, to give the heads up to the HR person," which we all know HR is the last to know.
Amber Clayton:
Again, what's funny is that was the process back then. Yeah, that's just how it was. I always thought that was a funny story. You've you've given our listeners much to think about. We've come to the end of our show. As a reminder, today is part one of our miniseries on The Technical Competency, HR Expertise, Talent Acquisition, When Good Hires Become Bad Employees.
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If you'd like to learn more about Honest HR or get additional information and resources on what was discussed in today's episode, head on over to shrm.org/honesthr. To learn more about other SHRM podcasts, check out shrm.org/podcasts. Thanks again for joining us on Honest HR, and we look forward to you joining us on part two.
Speaker 1:
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