<p><b>Callie and Lyndsey talk getting management experience where you can, how some of the smartest people in your org may not be the best managers and how some leaders lead with strong ideas.</b><br /><br />Lyndsey's advice: use your voice and drive your career.<br /><br />Head's up <em>Honest HR</em> producer Bailey Yeager jumps on to give her insight into the "natural progression" conversation.</p>
Callie and Lyndsey talk getting management experience where you can, how some of the smartest people in your org may not be the best managers and how some leaders lead with strong ideas.
Lyndsey's advice: use your voice and drive your career.
Head's up Honest HR producer Bailey Yeager jumps on to give her insight into the "natural progression" conversation.
Callie Zipple:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to Honest HR. I am Callie Zipple with SHRM. I'm excited to be back for another episode. We've got a new topic and a new guest. So I'm excited to introduce that here in a moment. I want to take a moment to thank our listeners if you've been with us before, thanks for coming back. If you're new, we change guests and topics every week, so if you're not interested in what we're talking about today, come back again or go back and listen to our previous episodes. Again, guests and topics change as often as we can. So today's episode topic is how we come about leadership opportunities and leadership experience and how sometimes it's not through the professional management experience that we're all accustomed to knowing about. So today's guest is Lyndsey Tym, and I want her to introduce herself, tell us a little bit about what she's doing, and then we'll jump into the topic of leadership that doesn't necessarily equal management experience. So go ahead.
Lyndsey Tym:
Well, thank you for having me. It's really exciting to have listened to all of the episodes and then now having built a relationship with Callie over the last couple of months to be able to participate in one of the episodes. So, well, my name is Lyndsey Tym. I'm the senior HR generalist at a engineering company in Grand Rapids called Nederveld. And I've been in human resources for about eight years since I went to school full time for human resources, I was working full time while I was going for school, while I was going to school. And I really was working in human resources while I was going to school. And I fell in love with the industry by the HR manager at a bank I was working with at the time.
And I originally went to school for marketing. I took one marketing class and realized this is not for me. [inaudible 00:02:22]. She was just really incredible the way she interacted with the staff. And I was always really impressed with how she conducted herself. And so she really inspired me without even really realizing that she was doing so to change my major and change my major to human resources. Fast forward, and she actually knew that I was studying human resources while I was working in banking and she invited me to join her team. It was incredible. And she was my manager for many, many years, a mentor to me and kind of like a work mom.
And it's still kind of a sounding board that I lean on. And since being in that position in banking, I was doing a lot in talent acquisition. In the end, I was doing mostly employee relations and then made a change to move to engineering. And now I'm in this new environment working in human resources at an engineering company that's not historically had human resources. So it's new and exciting.
Callie Zipple:
And as I mentioned, the topic is going to be leadership that you're not getting out of your actual manager title roles. And I love that you suggested this topic because it's, for me a real issue that we have in our workplaces. And it's because a lot of people assume that the only way to "move up" and I say that in quotes in their organization is to get that manager role or experience as their paying job.
But the reality is that not everybody is cut out for managing other people, nor do they want to do that. So, I think we need to think of different ways to offer leadership experience or to seek out leadership experiences ourselves when that manager role isn't the answer or isn't available to us. So the first thing I want to talk about is why you think organizations weave that managerial responsibility into the career development of their employees?
Lyndsey Tym:
What I would say is, I don't think that's necessarily a bad way to develop a career. But on the flip side though, I think it's important for more people to realize that's not the only way to build a career, but to answer Callie, your question. I think it's what seems very natural because you kind of think about the life cycle of an employee. They may come in entry level, they're going to gain experience, they're going to have some training and development opportunities, move into more independent contributors and be adding responsibilities, developing their roles.
And it seems only natural that the next step would be to manage people who are now going to start that process from the beginning as they did. And for some people that works very well, they do that intentionally so, but in some cases that's not necessarily what people want to do, or they may not be gifted for that, or it may just not work for that particular organization. So I think what my overwhelming message would be that it can work for a lot of people, but that's not the only way to go about developing your career is going the traditional ladder route of, up into management.
And I think a lot of organizations do it because it's easy, right? Because we've done it for years where we say, "okay, you're really good at this job, let's give you a manager role", and hoping that you can instill the goodness in you in the people that report to you. And so I think it's just the way that we've always handled, moving people up in organizations. And I know this to be true because I've had people that I've worked with who have told me that they don't love the management part of their job, but with that manager job, they get to do individual contributor work that is just next level. And that's the stuff that they enjoy. So I think as organizations, we need to figure out a way to separate a really high level individual contributor from somebody who wants to manage other people. And I don't think we can get to a place where somebody's full-time job is just to manage other people, but we need to find a way to figure out how to get somebody the experience that is senior level without necessarily having to take other people along with them in that managerial capacity.
So I know that, like I said, to be true because people like the high level individual contributor work that comes with a manager title, but they don't like to manage other people. So we need to figure out a way as organizations to separate those two, I think.
Callie Zipple:
I would tend to agree. And I think that to be a manager is a huge responsibility. It's more than just approving time cards, right? You're really instilling in your team, and with that, it really requires you to have these soft skills, these leadership skills and some people don't enjoy that or they don't have the gift for that. But what I think is important is that if people, if you realize early on in someone's development that they might not have those gifts and those strengths, if you're willing to work with them and help them to develop those soft skills, they could make a really great leader.
But I don't think it always makes sense to progress someone into a leader position or a manager position simply because they've kind of gotten to that next step job description says, "Hey, you've been in it five years, you're ready to take on a manager position", they may not be ready for it or might not be the right fit for it. So don't necessarily move them into management simply because that's what typically is supposed to happen.
Lyndsey Tym:
Isn't that kind of like, this is a bit of a tangent or an analogy, but isn't that kind of like saying "we've been dating for 10 years, so naturally we should just get married". It's a natural progression right? So there's a reason.
Callie Zipple:
Why is that the case though? Why is that the case?
Lyndsey Tym:
Exactly. I mean, either something's working and we'll optimize that or we're going to let it go. And we're going to be okay with that.
Callie Zipple:
To some extent, I think outside influence in what we've done historically. And I think those are huge factors for why those things often happen.
Lyndsey Tym:
And that is a challenge in itself because we're just perpetuating it. Because it's not only the employer that is saying, "Hey, we think that your next step is X", or it's that the employee thinks that they're not succeeding if their next step isn't.
Callie Zipple:
Right. So we talked about individual contributors and how we need to make sure that we are allowing them to be successful, even when managerial roles isn't that next step. And a lot of times we find ways to make the employee feel like they're not successful if they don't get to that manager level. But as organizations look at, we just did a podcast episode actually with an individual named Logan about career development and nine boxing and making sure that we're all talking about the same things when it comes to performance.
And that kind of comes to this conversation here too. We need to make sure that we've leveled or developed an organization in such a way that there is tracks for people in individual contributor roles. And it allows for them to get to the same level as it does management. So in speaking from experience, I've had conversations in previous roles where we have a manager track that somebody can opt into, but we also have an individual contributor track that goes just as high as a manager track so that if somebody identifies more with an individual contributor role and doesn't necessarily want those managerial capabilities, they can stay on that IC track. The difficulty there I'll say is pay. So when you are an individual contributor and you don't have the employees reporting to you, how does the pay structure adjust to mitigate not having those direct reports?
And I think that's something that organizations need to think about. So the first thing is actually defining what it means to be a highly successful individual contributor and then how pay mirrors that of managers, but maybe at a different level or a slower pace or something like that. So I think that's a struggle that organizations will find as they develop these sorts of paths for manager versus individual contributor.
Lyndsey Tym:
That's a real consideration. And like anything, if you're going to take an approach like this, you want it to be intentional, something that you can do continually. And so you don't want to just jump in. And I think one of the biggest things with that too is, if an organization's going to take that route, is the communication. How do you cascade this message to the organization that, if you're going to take more of a lattice approach versus a ladder approach, again, one's not right or wrong, they're just different.
And they work differently for different people with different gifts. But if someone's going to take more of a lattice approach, how do you message that to your team in a way that they see success with each move, they see that as a career, a career advancement and a step in the right direction in their own professional development, because it's different from what we traditionally see or might label as success or promotion. So there's a challenge there. And how do you message that to the team?
Callie Zipple:
And I think one of the things that I was thinking about as you were talking, and I know that we're told not to do that, but I love this conversation and I love the dialogue, so I'm thinking two steps ahead. But some of these individuals who are individual contributors at a high level are the smartest people in your organization, and you don't want to lose them or disengage them by having them feel like they're not successful because they're not wanting to take on that manager role.
So I love your idea of making sure that this communication is open and honest and two way so that people understand that "yeah, this person has been here for a while, they're just not a manager", but that doesn't mean that they aren't as important or as valued as somebody who does have those direct reports. So I love that notion, and I appreciate you getting it into this space.
My next question, and this is sort of the question that you came to me with, so I'm excited that we're here now in this conversation. But how can those who want that managerial experience, get it if they don't have the opportunity to get it at their organization. And I understand this to be sort of where you're at right now at the engineering firm, you mentioned.
Lyndsey Tym:
Yeah. So I think before answering, I think that you have to be careful about how we use the word management and leadership.
So in a traditional sense, management means the management of people, but that's... We're at BLS, and one of the biggest, or the first sessions was about change, we're in a world that's ever changing. And so that's not necessarily the cases that management means, the management of people, it could be the manager of a process or maybe a product line. And then in leadership too, to me leadership is almost like the umbrella over all of it. You could be utilizing leadership skills, but not, and be in a kind of a leadership capacity without, again, without being a manager of people or a leader of people.
So to your point, Callie, yeah, that's really been my experience. I, at this point in my career, haven't had any positions that I've had direct reports with the exception of a short period in time where I had some interns that worked really closely with me, but by no means would not call me a manager, but really was there more training and mentoring with those interns. But because I've not had any roles where that's been a requirement at this point, and I admittedly boldly don't know if management is something that I will have a passion for.
I have a passion for people and I have a passion for HR. So I'd like to think that I have the soft skills that could be a manager or a leader, but that's yet to be seen as I continue in my career. But because I want to be prepared in that event, I have sought out opportunities to gain that leadership, those leadership roles. So I took on an opportunity as alumni from Davenport University, where I went to get my bachelor's degree, they're putting on an alumni mentorship program. So they reached out to their alumni network and asked if people are interested in intentionally building relationships with students, Davenport students, sophomores, freshman, juniors, typically. So I was really excited to take on that opportunity. And for a period of about a year, I mentored with a individual who is going to school there, and it was a really great opportunity to really build a relationship, but then to kind of watch her flourish.
Callie Zipple:
Was she in HR?
Lyndsey Tym:
She's not in HR. And so originally when I went into it, I kind of wondered if because of my major, and my experience, and my career, if they might put me with an HR student, but she was sort of undeclared and really kind of exploring. And so that's one of the things we talked about when we had our first initial conversations is because it's so difficult at that point in your student life to decide what are you going to declare in your major to ultimately get you into your career for the rest of your life? And so what can we do to afford her opportunities to learn what it's like in all these different areas? So she knew how to decide on her major.
And it was really exciting. And anybody from west Michigan who listens to this is going to know exactly what it's like, it ended up being a daughter of one of the employees at the engineering firm that I worked at, didn't realize it until I sent her an email and she saw my email signature said Nederveld. So, it was a really, really great opportunity to be able to mentor with her and watch her grow throughout the school year. So I took that opportunity, but then also a great one that for me has been such a growing opportunity, I will say I've learned, I've grown personally and professionally with AHRM, the regional HR chapter affiliated with SHRM. So I joined that chapter as a chapter member when the woman that I mentioned early on in the podcast recommended it.
Again, she was kind of taking me under her wing and I was a fresh faced HR professional ready to conquer the world. And so I went to my first meeting and fell in love with it. And it wasn't shortly thereafter that I asked if I could be a part of the board. And so I was on the board for two years in the college relations role, and then I was on the board for two years in the PR role, and then one year in certifications. And then they came to me and asked if I would be willing to commit to the three year commitment of president. So 2019, I'll be the president of AHRM, and I can't wait. So, that's what gets me to the LS right now. So, great opportunity to work with other professionals and to gain leadership skills, again, in an area where you're not managing people, but you are in a leadership role.
Callie Zipple:
And I love that you sort of called me on the difference between leadership and management, because in both of those examples, what you did with leadership, you took on a leadership role by both leading that mentor or mentee, and your local SHRM chapter, and that doesn't necessarily make you a "manager". And I again say that in quotes for our listeners, but volunteer experience has just been one of the things that I've noticed in this role as a field service director with SHRM really gets people to that next level. And I can say it from experience because I was a volunteer before I took on a manager role in my previous organization, and now I'm able to work with volunteers again and see how they progressed through starting as a member to becoming the president of their local chapter.
And I think that's a great way for listeners who maybe haven't had the opportunity to be a manager yet to take on some leadership capabilities, to build their resume, to build those soft skills, to eventually get to a manager role or their paid job. One of the other things I'll mention too, is training sessions. So SHRM puts on a wonderful leadership development forum each year, and I had the opportunity to go to it this year. And I learned so much from those presenters about building credibility as a leader. And it wasn't necessarily about manager experience, it was about leadership experience and the difference between the two. And so there are training sessions out there to help people get leadership soft skills. And so that's another way that I would encourage our listeners to think about building leadership without necessarily having the opportunity to do so in their paid job.
So I love that. And I think, like I said, leadership experience by way of volunteering is a great way to get that if your organization's not able to give you that manager title or management of other people experience.
Lyndsey Tym:
And I think it's a really great way to, of course, it's a great way to gain leadership experience, but for some, if that's your first exposure to being in a leadership role, I think it's a really great way to start because you're on a board of volunteers, predominantly, you've got the SHRM chapters, predominantly they're non-paid positions, they're volunteered roles. So typically it's probably safe to assume that if somebody's volunteered their time and they're going to make the commitment to that organization, they're probably a driven go getter. And so you're working with just topnotch people who are engaged, on fire, ready to try things out and they're bought in.
And so it's a really great way to start because you're around people who are passionate and ready to drive the organization to success with a little bit less maybe pushback. And of course, when you get into those types of... Those things are going to happen, you could easily have that within your chapters and within your day jobs, if you will. You will have those things, you will have pushback, you will have opposition. But I think, again, getting into this volunteer board is a really great exposure at first. So you can get an idea for how things go.
Callie Zipple:
I like that. And I want to, we talked about being set up for success and being surrounded by people who want to see you be successful. And I want to spin it back to our organizations again and making sure that our managers and frankly, our leaders within our organizations are set up to succeed.
So what are some of the ways that we can, as HR professionals, make sure that we have the right people in the right roles and that they are set up for success and to be successful with our organizations.
Lyndsey Tym:
I think that there's they're kind of two big things. One would be, if you have to be doing this in more of a reactive way, if somebody is already in a role and they either don't like that management role, management in the traditional sense they're managing people, or they may not be skilled at it. You need to have some transparent conversations. Is it a matter of transitioning somebody out into more of an independent contributor type of role, or is it a matter of training and development? Perhaps somebody really has a passion for management, they don't necessarily have those skills, but they're willing to work on it.
So all of that boils down to conversations, be transparent and be willing to have that what might be uncomfortable conversation if somebody is already in that type of a role. So that's kind of one thing, but then another is where in that first example is more reactive, if you're going to be more proactive. When people are... To be having those conversations, having transparent discussions with the people on the team. What do they want to do? And what are they passionate about? What are they gifted? Where are those skills? What are the skills gaps, so that we can train and prepare people if they do want to go into management. And if they don't want to have that, what kinds of training opportunities do we need to provide in order to get them to that next level? Again, it may be management. It may not.
Callie Zipple:
My answer to this question would have been training if you hadn't just set me up to say that anyways. But for me, making sure that our managers are successful, comes back to development opportunities and to training. And I think there are organizations out there that do that well, they have managerial training programs that they've put together and make sure that all of their high potential individuals go through that so that they're being set up for success in a manager role, but making sure that our managers continue to develop themselves and continue to develop those skills once they've gotten to that level, I think is also important. So at every stage throughout the career process, development opportunities are important. And I think for me, that's the biggest thing here, making sure that people are successful comes back to training them to be successful, and then continuing to offer them opportunities to say, is this still right for you? Are we still on the right track here?
Coming back to your comments about communication, so development opportunities, making sure that the communication channels are always open. But one other thing I'll mention too about this is making sure that our managers have the correct amount of direct reports. And I've mentioned this on previous episodes, but I've worked in organizations where one manager has upwards of 15 direct reports. And this happens a lot in manufacturing or retail and things like that. And sometimes those environments it makes sense because performance appraisal conversations are a little bit more tactical focused. But when you get into a professional environment, having 15 direct reports where you have to have meaningful conversations around success and failures and career development, 15 conversations to have... SHRM does them quarterly, so I can't even [inaudible 00:25:30].
Exactly. So to have that many direct reports, sets managers up for the opposite of success, and burnout, yeah. Failure is what I was going to say, that's a very harsh word. But I think making sure that we, as HR practitioners are thinking about those things and saying, okay, what does the organization look like? And are our managers poised to lead the people they have on their teams successfully? So I think that's another thing that I would mention here that HR professionals can do, look at how slack the organization is or how not slack your organization is and what makes sense for the people that you have on board.
Lyndsey Tym:
I think too, a lot of it depends on the culture of the organization. And I mean, to your point Callie, you said it depends on the industry, the type of work, the type of employees that are on the team that I don't think that there's really a right or wrong answer to, or this magic bullet number of direct reports.
But I think culture is a huge part of it. If you have a culture that it really empowers people, you may be able to have more direct reports to each manager because you've empowered people to go use your skills, we trust you because we've trained you, we've invested in you, we believe in what you're doing for the organization. And it's not to say that they don't need to be having a meaningful relationship and those meaningful conversations, but you could potentially afford to have a higher direct report amount if that's the type of culture that you have.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah. I like that. I didn't even think of that, but you're right. If you've created an environment that allows for people to be successful and not necessarily have to have a ton of checkpoints with their manager then the bandwidth becomes larger.
So, yeah, that's a great point.
Lyndsey Tym:
Right. And it may mean less checkpoints, but it could just mean that the relationship with the manager is just a little bit different. That probably would be the case that, because the relationship is very much a one of trust, again an empowerment, that less check points, if you will, are required, but that doesn't mean that the manager and their employee don't need to have that meaningful relationship.
Callie Zipple:
Yep. I like that. And that actually comes to the end of our questions. So is there anything else, any final remarks you want to give to our listeners?
Lyndsey Tym:
What I would say maybe would be a word of what I hope would be inspiration to young professionals, that if you are not necessarily in a position where you're afforded opportunities to manage or maybe you just don't have that interest yet, but it could be something that you have in your future, you might want to consider, I would say go out, drive your career, drive your success where you can and get some experience where you can.
All of that to me would be fairly transferable when it comes to moving into those types of roles when it comes to being at your organization, your day job, so to say. So get out there, the opportunities are out there, go use your voice and go drive your career.
Callie Zipple:
I love that. I'm not even going to add anything to that. So if our listeners would like to connect with you or contact you to sort of continue the conversation, where can they reach you?
Lyndsey Tym:
LinkedIn is great. Just Lyndsey Tym. It's not spelled typically it's L Y N D S E Y, Tym is T Y M, and I'm on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from people.
Callie Zipple:
Wonderful. And I, again, this is Callie, your host, I'm on Twitter and Instagram at SHRM Callie Z. I'm also on LinkedIn at Callie Zipple. Lyndsey, I want to thank you for your time, it was great. And I want to thank all of our listeners for coming back out. We do have updates on our shrm.org/honestHR website. Feel free to subscribe or suggest any future topics or guests. Again, thank you for coming out. And we next episode of Honest HR.