<p>The heart of workplace equity lies in providing fair opportunities to all of your organization’s employees by identifying and supporting the specific needs of employees from different demographics, <b>but how do you that? </b><br /><br />In this episode of Honest HR, host Gloria Sinclair Miller speaks with <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/armstrongnicole/">Nicole Armstrong</a>, the Founder and CEO of <a href="https://queencitycertified.com/">Queen City Certified</a>, a leading data-informed employer certification and leadership program for workplace equity. Hear Nicole discuss what goes into a data-driven assessment of your organization’s equity, how to get started making diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) assessments at your organization, and also advice for emerging professionals interested in pursuing a career in DEI.</p><p><b>Earn 0.50 SHRM PDCs for Listening to This Episode</b></p><p>Episodes of Honest HR help you build your competencies while also earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP or SHRM-SCP recertification. All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the episode.<br /><br />Honest HR is a podcast from <a href="https://shrm.org/">SHRM</a>, the Society for Human Resource Management.</p>
The heart of workplace equity lies in providing fair opportunities to all of your organization’s employees by identifying and supporting the specific needs of employees from different demographics, but how do you that?
In this episode of Honest HR, host Gloria Sinclair Miller speaks with Nicole Armstrong, the Founder and CEO of Queen City Certified, a leading data-informed employer certification and leadership program for workplace equity. Hear Nicole discuss what goes into a data-driven assessment of your organization’s equity, how to get started making diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) assessments at your organization, and also advice for emerging professionals interested in pursuing a career in DEI.
Earn 0.50 SHRM PDCs for Listening to This Episode
Episodes of Honest HR help you build your competencies while also earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP or SHRM-SCP recertification. All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the episode.
Honest HR is a podcast from SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Welcome to Honest HR, the podcast for all of us HR professionals, people managers, and team leads, intent on growing and developing our companies for the better. We bring you honest, forward-thinking conversations and relatable stories from the workplace that challenge the way it's always been done, because after all, you have to push back to move forward.
Wendy Fong:
Honest HR is a podcast from SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management. And by listening, you're helping create better workplaces and a better world. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
And I am Gloria Sinclair Miller.
Hosts:
Now, let's get honest.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Hello, everyone, and welcome back. I am your host, Gloria Sinclair Miller, SHRM Field Services Director. Today, we are taking on the topic of equity in our workplaces. So, let's just say, the last year there's been a lot of conversation about diversity, equity, and inclusion. I would say not just the last year, but it's really been the last few years, and if we think about the last month and year, it's been great, but it's been exhausting all at the same time if you're in the space of DE&I.
With so much progress, we know every day there's still so much more we need to do, and we look at what's happening, both at a federal, state, and local level, so when you think about DE&I at a federal level, mandates around training for federal employees. If you think about our employers, from an equity perspective, this alone is costing our US businesses billions of dollars each year. And it's a cost that comes through absenteeism. It comes through lost productivity, and ultimately, turnover as well.
Over the last year, we've talked a lot about how this has impacted women and also our Black employees, and our Black employees have been most at risk at experiencing some of this equity, and that's where a lot of the SHRM research over the past year has really focused on. But let's not forget, there are other groups that fall into this category as we talk about the inequity that exists.
I am so excited today to be joined for this conversation by Nicole Armstrong. Nicole Armstrong is a founder and CEO of Queen City Certified. Queen City Certified is the nation's leading data-informed employer certification and cohort-based leadership program for intersectional workplace equity. Welcome, Nicole.
Nicole Armstrong:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Gloria. I'm so excited to be here with you today.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Well, I am so excited for you to be with us, and every time you and I have a conversation on this topic, we can go on and on, so I am so looking forward to our listeners being able to hear more from you. So, let's start by talking a little bit about telling us about your background and why you chose to focus your career in the space.
Nicole Armstrong:
Absolutely. So I actually started my career in design. I did a lot of work developing and implementing design and brand strategy, specifically for mission-driven organizations around the world, so working a lot in the nonprofit sector. But before founding Queen City Certified, I also worked as a social innovation specialist, basically applying the principles of design thinking and human-centered design to social challenges alongside marginalized communities.
I founded Queen City Certified in 2018 because I realized and recognized, as many of us do, that talent isn't limited by identities like race or gender or sexual orientation, but opportunities often are. And I've seen firsthand how women, and even more specifically, women of color, are struggling to find the balance between work and family and to advance in the workplace.
In fact, I personally experienced the backlash of "leaning in" when attempting to negotiate a market rate salary after receiving an offer just above what I'd made at my previous job, and a friend of mine was outright denied a job because she was pregnant at the time. A new mother I had the privilege of working with was forced to return to work within a couple of weeks after her son was born prematurely because her employer wasn't required by law to offer FMLA and they didn't offer any paid time off.
So I think in many ways, the workplace as we know it was designed for white men, and I founded Queen City Certified because it's really time to stop asking people with historically marginalized identities to adapt to systems that really were not designed with their needs in mind, and it's time to focus our attention on redesigning the systems that perpetuate that inequality.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
I could not agree with you more, and that's why I love our conversations and love the work that you do with Queen City Certified. And I think the last year, this topic has really been highlighted, and for all of the reasons, all of those things that you mentioned that you've experienced, that I've experienced, others we know have experienced, as women, whether it's based on our ethnicity, whatever. We've all experienced some of that.
And as we go through it, the spotlight that is on it today I think has finally brought people along that, quite frankly, this is a topic that some have been addressing for a while and others probably didn't realize it and are now starting to see the light, for lack of a better term, and it might be some of those white men we alluded to, not to pick on them, but I mean, that's the reality that we see.
So when you think about everything that's gone on in the last year or so, and obviously not just the conversations that we've had in the US and globally as it relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion, but also what the global pandemic really shined a spotlight on more than anything, so when we talk about marginalized communities, when we talk about healthcare, and all of those things that got reinforced through the pandemic, what do you see? What are you talking to clients about that's different today about being in the DE&I space, and specifically as it relates to equity?
Nicole Armstrong:
Yeah, I think when we look back prior to the last year and a half, a lot of the DEI space has historically focused on recognizing personal bias and promoting diversity in the workplace. And in fact, we spend $8 billion a year on diversity trainings in the US alone. But I think this ... studies show that they don't actually lead to more diversity or changes in behavior, sustained changes in behavior. And in many ways, I think they've provided an opportunity for employers to check a box rather than address systemic inequality, and I do think that that's beginning to change. I think given the disproportionate impact of the global pandemic on women and communities of color, particularly Black communities and Latinx communities, along with the national spotlight on police brutality and systemic racism, the conversation is shifting from individual acts of bias to systemic inequality, which is vital, really, if we're going to enact any meaningful changes.
To add to that, I love this notion you started in the beginning talking about all the different identities and how people have been impacted by the pandemic in different ways, and I think that's why it's so vital for employers to really begin taking an intersectional approach, and what we mean by that is that every employee's experience is very much informed by the multiple identities we hold, right? We as individuals are not monoliths, right? Your one Black employee is not representative of all Black employees, and your individual women employees are not representative of all women, and so I think there's more nuance to the conversation and understanding that some of the identities we hold carry resources, some of them carry restrictions, and they intersect in a unique way to influence our experience as employees, and we've seen that over the past year and a half. And so I think that is a really welcomed nuance.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Yeah, no, absolutely. And just to reinforce that example, because I think most, and I'm not going to call on all HR people, but I think we've all been guilty of that, that something happens, whether it's with a Hispanic employee or a Black employee, and suddenly the one Black employee that's on the team is now the expert, right? And they have to be the spokesperson for an entire group. Or in this case, we're seeing it a little bit as there were diversity conversations, immediately we go to the only Black employee on the team to talk about it, whether female, male, to talk about, "Well, can you share your experience?" It's like, "No, I don't want to share my experience. I've lived my experience, and I may not be in a position right now to do that."
So I think the notion of this conversation as it relates to looking at the entire spectrum, as you talked about, and also the piece of, we're all trying to build a more inclusive culture, and that inclusive culture comes from recognizing the diversity that exists on the team, learning from that diversity, but also creating a very open and equitable experience so that whoever it is on the team feels like they belong, and they're a part of the environment that's being created, and I think that's so critically important and challenging all at the same time when we talk about this.
Nicole Armstrong:
Yeah, absolutely. And I cannot stress enough too, I think ... You know, we've seen this in conversation, expecting folks to educate colleagues on their personal trauma, and how really harmful that can be and how really it's up to all of us within the workplace, especially leaders, to educate themselves. There's so many amazing resources out there, to your point before of not expecting people who are most impacted by inequality to educate others on their own personal experiences or traumas. So, absolutely. And I think that, again, going back to that notion of this nuanced conversation, I'm beginning to see that more, and I'm beginning to see people really reach out and say, "Well, where can I find resources to educate myself, and where can I go for those type of opportunities to make sure that I'm looking at things through a more equitable lens?" So that's really refreshing.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Yeah, absolutely. So on the topic of kind of educating ourselves, I think one big, I guess, conversation that I see often is this trying to interchange the words equity and equality when we're having this conversation. And a lot of us have been guilty of that, but as you work in this space, define for us kind of the difference between when we're talking about equity and we're talking about equality. How do you define those?
Nicole Armstrong:
That's a great question. Equality is when we give everyone the same thing. Equity is when we give people what they need. And we see this play out in everyday life all the time, right? So let's take dinner time, for example. So if we have a family of four sitting down to eat, we have two adults, we have one school-aged child, we have one five-month-old infant. Would we serve the infant the same meal as the adults and the school-aged child? Probably not. Right?
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Probably not. No.
Nicole Armstrong:
And alternatively, would we give each person at the table a jar of baby food and some milk and call it a day?
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
I hope not.
Nicole Armstrong:
Of course not, right? We'd give each person what they need. Now, if we give them all the same thing, that's equality, but that's assuming we're all starting from the same place, that we all have the same needs. And of course we know that, as people, that's just not the case.
So, as it's often said, I think if equality is our goal, equity is how we get there. And how we view it at Queen City Certified is that equity is actually the foundation that enables employers to create an inclusive work environment that can then in turn attract and retain a more diverse workforce. So we actually think that it should be EID, not DEI, because equity is really sort of that systems-level approach that we're talking about. How do we create systems that promote the outcomes that we're looking for, that gives folks what they need rather than all the same thing?
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
No, that's great. And I love that example, which I'm probably going to steal and use.
Nicole Armstrong:
Feel free.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
So, there's so much great work that you do with your team and with employers, so let's talk about this a little bit, because I think the education in this space is so important. I know I recently saw in a SHRM article, it mentioned if you're a white leader and you're not personally engaged in learning and understanding racism, oppression, equity, you're not doing your job. So you could replace that term white leader with anyone at this point, and I think it is so important that we're constantly learning in this space, but we're also recognizing where our opportunities are, and I think the other thing that I've learned more in this year is just patience with people as they're going through this journey, because it is a journey. Whether you are in a space where you're leading a team or in a space where you're a part of a team, wherever you are, there's a journey to be had.
So I would love to hear your perspective. You're working with teams, you're helping them to break down biases, you're educating those leaders and teams. Let's talk about like, how does that work happen? How have you been able to make an impact?
Nicole Armstrong:
Absolutely. Well, I want to come back to what you mentioned too, this opportunity, because I think we're in a really unique time right now, right? We are still in the midst of a global pandemic, but I think we're beginning to reimagine what the workplace could be, and in many ways, we've been forced to adapt. And as we collectively sort of begin to envision this post-pandemic world, I think there is no better time to reimagine the workplace so that we are really focusing on redesign so that all people can thrive rather than just that select few we mentioned. And I also think it's worth noting that, in this new labor market, employees have more opportunities and they're taking their power back.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Absolutely.
Nicole Armstrong:
And the competition for talent right now is fierce, and so really there's no better time for visionary leaders to set a new standard for workplace equity, and I do believe that the employers that do that will rise to the top as leaders in their sectors, attracting and retaining that top talent, which of course is not only the right thing to do, but good for business.
I think now that we've had more awareness and there's more conversation happening around that, leaders want to know what they can do. And our goal at Queen City Certified is really to bring leaders together from diverse sectors to learn alongside one another, and also from one another in a collaborative learning environment. We really do believe that we're stronger together.
And to your point, we're all on a different journey. No one has all the answers, right? We've never been through a time like this before, where we have this opportunity to reimagine what the workplace could be and how we could redesign it to serve everyone. And so I think the communication, the willingness to share, the vulnerability is so key and so important as we move forward, and to your point, to have empathy that everyone is on a different point in their journey. There is no end point to this journey. It's constantly learning.
But what we do is we create sort of this collaborative environment through a cohort-based experience, where we bring leaders together from diverse sectors to learn from thought leaders, to have conversations that are facilitated by folks who have experience in change management, in the intersection of identities, in DEI, all those different things, all the conversations that have been happening, to facilitate it in a way that feels safe for people to ask questions, to be vulnerable, to share their experiences, to explore some of these topics.
But in addition to that, I think, we often talk, we mentioned in the beginning, about this notion of understanding our own personal lenses and our own personal biases which we all have, and that is critically important, but equally important is to examine how they've been translated into our systems. Right? And so part of what we do with our employers is conduct a policy assessment, really with that research-based, evidence-based best practices, looking at a wholistic view of the workplace, everything from hiring practices to work-life integration to professional development opportunities and equitable pay practices, representation and leadership, organizational culture, right? These are all elements of the workplace that we need to do a deep dive.
And then from there, our goal really, to help leaders make informed decisions, is to uncover those disparities in employee experience. Right? As we mentioned before, this notion of intersectionality, not everybody experiences the workplace in the same way. And so we do conduct a really comprehensive employee survey with our employers, and we disaggregate that demographic data. So we examine the employee experience through the lenses of race and gender, age, ability, sexual orientation, and family status, and that really allows us to work one-on-one with employers to develop action plans that's informed by their own unique data.
So each employer's action plan is going to be different based on where they are in their journey, and it empowers leaders to make data-driven decisions that can lead to tangible results. But it really does have this marriage between sort of understanding the personal lenses and the biases we show up and we bring to the workplace, as well as the systemic, and I think that those two things combined are so important if we're going to see the changes that we hope to see, and the changes in the representation and leadership and voice that we're hoping to achieve.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
No, that sounds great, and I love the opportunity. There were two things that, in the work that you do, that stand out and we hear it from our members all the time as two things they need. One, that ability to interact with a peer group, to be able to have this safe space, that there's a conversation about, "Here's what we're doing. Here's what we may not be doing," but having that safe space to have those conversations and that supportive network, because let's face it, this work is hard. It's not easy to do.
The second part is the data-driven. So, we talk a lot about, from an HR professional's perspective, data wasn't always why those of us who've been in HR for a while got into HR. We got into it because maybe we didn't like math and finance, but many of us are seeing how important making data-driven decisions, how important that is. I mean, as we continue to thrive and be part of the conversations with our CEOs and other senior leaders, the more data that we can provide to be able to drive this change that we're talking about, but not only to build the business case to do it, but also to continue to drive the business case to continue it, because I think you've seen this, I've seen it, we start down this journey, and then we check a box that something's done, and then we don't look at it anymore until there's a problem. Right?
Nicole Armstrong:
Yep.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
So, you know, being able to have this data and use that data and continually invest by constantly being able to update that data, I think, is so critical. And the last thing, as I sit back and think of my life being in the HR chair, what a great opportunity it is that you don't always have to be able to go back and look at policies, procedures that were inherited. We've all done the, "Well, it's always been done that way." And when it's time to make a change, well, change is hard.
Nicole Armstrong:
Change is hard. Yes.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Right.
Nicole Armstrong:
Yeah.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
So having that change management perspective, which again, we're hearing from our members all the time like, "Change is hard. I know I need to do it. I need help. I don't know where to start in order to get some of these things done," and I think that is the beauty of the work that you are currently doing with employers because it's filling such a gap at such a critical time. So, I really wanted to reinforce those points, just putting my HR hat back on and thinking, "Wow, where would I need and where would I want that information that would be so helpful right now?"
Nicole Armstrong:
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your kind words and for your support. Absolutely. I think one of the biggest challenges for employers when they're thinking about this journey is it's very daunting, right? There's so many opportunities to improve. There's so many approaches that you can take, and sometimes it can feel like you're throwing spaghetti against a wall to try to see what sticks and what works. And so anytime that you can really understand employee experience in a much more nuanced way, as we were saying that before, can be so helpful in actually designing a strategy that can give you clarity around, where do you need to go in the next two years? Where do you need to go in the next four years? And then let's measure it. Right?
You know, one of the things that we do offer to employers is certification, but we often say certification is the beginning of the journey, not the end. It's good for two years for a reason. There's that famous quote that what gets measured gets done, and that is absolutely true. And so part of it is we don't know how to get to where we're going if we don't have a roadmap, and we don't know if the roadmap is accurate unless we're measuring impact. And so by creating sort of this two year approach, every two years we're going back and we're measuring, what impact did what we do have on ... in some instances it might be women of color in the workplace, in some instances it might be our LGBTQIA employees. So really being focused on, where are the unique challenges and opportunities for growth within an organization, and how can we begin to address those and measure those?
And that's empowering. We've had a lot of HR professionals say how empowering it was to have the data in hand, to have sort of the visuals in hand, to go to the board and say, "This is where we're at," right? Because sometimes prior to that, all you have is anecdotal evidence. You have stories, or you might sense that the morale's not great among certain employees, but you don't have the data. And when you get the data, it's so much easier to say, "Look, if we were to implement some of these strategies, we could really start to approach some of the disparities that we're seeing among our employees based on these intersecting identities." That's really empowering. And also, it provides the information you need to get buy-in from leadership, and we all know that, without buy-in from leadership, we're not going anywhere. Right?
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Absolutely.
Nicole Armstrong:
It has to be an organization-wide initiative, and it has to be a strategic priority, not just of a select few but of the entire leadership team. So having that data can be so empowering to bring to that leadership team and say, "This is where we're at and this is where we need to go."
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. And I can't say enough, it's hard work, but worth the investment.
Nicole Armstrong:
Absolutely. There's no checking a box when it comes to DEI. I think there's always that temptation to say, "Well, we'll host a training and then we'll call it a day," but it really is deep work, long work, hard work, but it's so worthwhile.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Right, right. Yeah. It's not a training. It's not a one-size-fits-all training that you're one-and-done about. It really is why this system change is needed in most organizations, and I think you hit on so many reasons why this is needed at this point. And again, I think sometimes we think about, and I know in employers I've worked in, sometimes it's really easy and comfortable to talk about gender, not as easy and comfortable to talk about the ethnic diversity and the need to really build equity and look at our policies, and specifically, we just had a SHRM webcast when we were talking about the LGBIA community and how much, again, we really need to be thinking about equity in that space. And for some, this is a space, quite frankly, they haven't even tapped into and really thought about. And if we're thinking about the diversity of our population at this point, this should be included in that conversation, just like any of the other groups that we're talking about.
So this system change is really needed in our organization, and my personal opinion, and I would love to hear yours, is if we can just get focused on what that process is and the change management needed to do that, then every other change becomes a little bit easier. But you're in the space and you're working with employers, what's your perspective on that?
Nicole Armstrong:
You know, it's so interesting. The concept of gender, sometimes when we talk about gender, we think women, and actually, everyone has a gender.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Yep. That's true.
Nicole Armstrong:
Or some folks are non-binary, identify as non-binary, so in some ways what we've noticed over the past few years is that the conversation around gender and the norms that we have around gender are sometimes more difficult to have with folks than even conversations around race.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
True.
Nicole Armstrong:
Particularly when we start to talk about transgender-inclusive benefits, or those who identify as non-binary, or the use of personal pronouns. This can be a really difficult conversation for folks to have, because in many ways, gender is one of those things that goes so far back that, even before you're out of the womb, people want to know, "What's your gender?"
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Right.
Nicole Armstrong:
And then they ascribe characteristics to you based on that. So it's interesting because I think we've gotten accustomed to this notion that gender means women, but actually, the norms and the constructs we have around gender can be harmful to everyone, including men. Right?
And so it's an interesting conversation to have, it's an important conversation to have, and again, when we think about the intersectionality of that, when we begin to overlap gender and race, or gender and class, or race and ability, right?
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
That's true.
Nicole Armstrong:
These are the conversations that we need to start having to say not everyone's experience is the same, and how we build our systems ... You know, one of the things that I always challenge our organizations to consider is envision someone with the most marginalized identities that you can envision. Now solve for that person. Because if we solve for that person, we solve for everyone, and we've seen that historically, right? We initially integrated wheelchair ramps in our sidewalks for those folks who needed to use a wheelchair, but it also benefited people with strollers or the elderly or people who had trouble getting over the curb. So when we design for those who maybe are the most historically marginalized, we can design for everybody. And so I do think having those conversations with leaders and how those things show up in our systems can be really crucially important. And once you start to recognize that, then you can start to identify, wow, we have built personal biases into our systems, particularly when it comes to gender.
If we look at the pandemic, we know that that had disproportionate impact on women, but specifically women of color, because we as a society have determined what jobs are appropriate for women, what jobs are appropriate for women of color, and so we've seen the disproportionate impact on the jobs that were at risk of layoff and also deemed essential, and many of those were disproportionately felt by women of color. But we also saw these gender norms rear their heads when we were thinking about childcare, and who was going to be responsible for educating children at home, and oftentimes that fell on women. And in fact, over the pandemic, men were three times more likely to get a promotion while they were working at home with children than their female counterparts who were working at home with children.
So understanding and sort of deconstructing these norms, the stereotypes, the expectations we have around people based on their identities, is a really great place to start. Then we can start looking at our policies and our practices and saying, "How have we built these in? How are we reinforcing these notions or these stereotypes?"
We can see this in hiring practices, right? A lot of times we'll hear from an employer, "Oh, I'd love to attract more diverse candidate pools, but they just don't apply." And our response is always, well, where are you looking? Where are you recruiting? And what message are you sending, whether it's through your website or your marketing materials or any other sort of public facing communication. Are you communicating that you are an inclusive workplace? And really when you begin to examine it, are you inclusive? Have you gone through and really rebuilt those systems to make sure that you're not advantaging one group over another?
We could see that in parental leave, right? A lot of organizations will offer more parental leave to women or people who give birth than they do to fathers or people who don't give birth, but what message does that send? That it's a woman's job to take care of children.
And so these are the kinds of things that these norms and these biases that we all hold as a society show up. This is how we've designed it. And then it reinforces that notion, right? So when we think about who's getting promoted, who's being put in these leadership roles, it can all tie back to how we've designed our systems and what we've done to mitigate bias and actually disrupt bias in the systems themselves.
So these are the conversations I think it's important to have with leaders to really understand, where are our preconceived notions of individuals, and then how have we designed those biases and actually built them into the systems themselves? Because until we do that and until we begin to redesign those systems to mitigate or to disrupt those biases, we're going to get the same results over and over again.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Yep. That's so very true. Absolutely. So, you've given so many good words of advice on where to get started, but if we had to narrow down, because we know that it's hard to even get started, so where would you advise someone, "I really need to take a look at the systems that we have in place in our organization," where would you guide them to start?
Nicole Armstrong:
Absolutely. So I think there's three key things that people can do. I think the first is starting to do an audit of your policies and practices, right? We talked about identifying and removing that systemic bias. Part of that is looking at your hiring practices. Are you using biased language in your job postings? Are you looking in the same place for candidates and expecting a different result? All those different things, right? So the other thing is your employee benefits. We talked about the parental leave policies, the paid sick leave, the paid time off, flexible work arrangements.
Start to really take a look at policies and practices through the lenses of equity, and if we talk about that person that we mentioned, the person with the most marginal identities, how are you solving for them? Because then you can begin to deconstruct your policies and practices through that lens. Would it benefit for them? Start asking the questions, who designed this policy or practice? What identities did they hold? Did they have the lens as needed to see the nuance and the impact maybe on people with different identities?
Look at performance evaluation, particularly when it comes to promotions. Are those expectations clear? Are they transparent? Are they serving a select few? You are you even measuring? Are you beginning to disaggregate that data and measure that data by these different identities to make sure that we're saying, okay, when we're looking at promotions, when we're looking at interview rates, are we tracking them by gender and race and other identities? Think about compensation. Are you conducting pay equity audits on a yearly basis or at least every two years? These are really important things to start with. So auditing those policies and practices is number one.
I think number two is really thinking about that intersectional framework we talked about, so understanding and disaggregating any data. A lot of organizations will conduct employee engagement surveys, or they'll conduct other surveys throughout the year. Make sure you're disaggregating that data when you can, by gender, race, LGBTQIA, ability, age, family status, because unless you understand how people are experiencing the workplace in different ways, it's very hard to create sort of a meaningful DEI strategy and to really identify those opportunities for growth.
And then I think the final thing is really developing an action plan. So based on what you've learned, getting very clear about what it is you want to achieve. DEI has to be a strategy, not a nice to have, right? There has to be measurable deliverables. There has to be timeframes in place.
We also need to hold leaders and management accountable, so if we do have outcomes that we're hoping to achieve, how are we going to get there? How are we going to measure it? Are we integrating those measurements into performance evaluations, right? Are we holding our leaders accountable, whether it's with their pay or their bonuses or their performance to say, what have you really done to achieve these goals that we've set? Because I think too many times organizations view their diversity, equity, and inclusion strategies as a nice to have, and then when things get busy, they can fall by the wayside. So unless we have strategies in place to hold people accountable, it's going to be very difficult to actually achieve those goals. So accountability, I think, is the last and final piece that I would encourage folks to consider.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Great words of wisdom on where to get started. So I guess my last question for you would be, so obviously a number of people have an interest in the space of DE&I, and specifically in looking at equity in our workplaces. If a young professional, emerging professional, was starting to look at a career in this space, what advice would you give?
Nicole Armstrong:
That's a great question. You know, I think for me, personally, the advice I would give, one is to always keep a learning mindset, right? Even as a DEI professional, you will never know everything. I'm learning constantly every day, always looking for research and evidence-based practices to make sure that what we're doing is going to have an impact.
I think it can be easy to fall into the trap of hosting one-off trainings or sessions, but really trying to maintain and educate employers on the need for systems change. So if you are going to go into this space, I think that's amazing. Go into it, dive into it, learn as much as you can, keep learning as much as you can, but always use your own privilege that you have to advocate for those who are most marginalized, and we do that through systems change.
And so I think identifying maybe the challenges you could have faced, but also the opportunities you have, and leveraging those to really advocate on behalf maybe of those who aren't invited to the table or who don't have a voice.
So I think always keeping that mission and that in alignment with your work is key. And then, again, to keep that learning mindset. I would say also surround yourself by others in this space. There's so many amazing leaders in this space. There's so much to learn. There's so much to do, and really elevating those voices to make sure that this notion of abundance, that we're sharing this notion of abundance and not scarcity, I think that's the other key thing to think of as a DEI professional.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Great. Well, thank you, Nicole. It was such a pleasure to be able to talk to you today and really dive into this conversation. I am sure our listeners enjoyed listening to you, learning more about you, your background, and the amazing work that you do. If our listeners want to connect with you or reach out to you, how can they find you online?
Nicole Armstrong:
Absolutely. So they can visit queencitycertified.com. They can also find us on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter. For, I believe, Facebook and LinkedIn it's Queen City Certified, and on Twitter it's Queen City Cert. So, feel free to connect with us. We often host information sessions if folks are interested in learning more, and we do have an incredibly strong alumni network as well that you'll often see us post about on our social media. So, always feel free to connect. We're always looking to work with employers, no matter where they are on their journey.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
Great. Well, thank you, again, Nicole. And we've come to the end of our show. Thank you for listening. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe so you never miss an episode of the Honest HR podcast. Be sure to rate and review the show. Feel free to reach out to me. You can find me on Twitter at SHRMGloria, or you can find me on LinkedIn at Gloria Sinclair Miller.
And if you'd like to learn more about the Honest HR podcast, about myself and the other co-hosts, or get other information and resources about what we discussed today, head over to shrm.org/honesthr. To learn more about other SHRM podcasts, check out shrm.org/podcasts. Until next time, thank you again for joining us for Honest HR.
This podcast is approved to receive recertification PDCs, but only if you listen to the entire episode. The activity code for this podcast is the number two, the number two, E as in Echo, the number six, Q as in Quebec, R as in Romeo, Z as in Zulu. Again, the activity code is the number two, the number two, E as in Echo, the number six, Q as in Quebec, R as in Romeo, Z as in Zulu.