<p>Employees identifying as POC and LGBTQIA+ have disproportionately experienced negative outcomes resulting from the pandemic, including higher rates of infection, greater loss of employment and AAPI discrimination. In this episode of SHRM’s <em>Honest HR </em>podcast, host Wendy Fong speaks with Michelle Kim, entrepreneur, writer, DE&I thought leader and CEO of <a href="https://www.visionawaken.com/">Awaken</a>, to provide insights and action steps on how to proactively and effectively support the POC and LGBTQIA+ employees at your organization.<br /><br /><b>EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING</b></p><p>Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast episode.<br /><br />Additional topic resources:<br /><br /><a href="https://hbr.org/2020/05/how-u-s-companies-can-support-employees-of-color-through-the-pandemic">How U.S. Companies Can Support Employees of Color Through the Pandemic</a> - Harvard Business Review<br />Learn more about SHRM's <a href="https://togetherforwardatwork.shrm.org/">Together Forward @Work</a> initiative</p>
Employees identifying as POC and LGBTQIA+ have disproportionately experienced negative outcomes resulting from the pandemic, including higher rates of infection, greater loss of employment and AAPI discrimination. In this episode of SHRM’s Honest HR podcast, host Wendy Fong speaks with Michelle Kim, entrepreneur, writer, DE&I thought leader and CEO of Awaken, to provide insights and action steps on how to proactively and effectively support the POC and LGBTQIA+ employees at your organization.
EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING
Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast episode.
Additional topic resources:
How U.S. Companies Can Support Employees of Color Through the Pandemic - Harvard Business Review
Learn more about SHRM's Together Forward @Work initiative
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Honest HR Podcast, the show that explores the uncomfortable, complicated, and sometimes wonderful truths of the workplace.
Amber Clayton:
We're here to have honest conversations, giving you the good, the bad and the ugly side of HR. Nothing is off the table.
Wendy Fong:
This is a SHRM podcast approved to provide SHRM CP and SHRM SCP re-certification PDCs. Details will be provided inside each qualifying episode. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Gloria Sinclair Miller:
And I'm Gloria Sinclair Miller. And we are your three hosts.
Wendy Fong:
Hello everyone. And welcome back listeners, and welcome to anyone who is listening for the very first time. I'm your host, Wendy Fong, membership engagement senior specialist for SHRM and the SHRM Northern California community. Today, I have the privilege and pleasure of introducing our guest. Michelle Kim is an entrepreneur writer and diversity equity and inclusion thought leader who believes in creating compassionate space for uncomfortable conversation that go beyond just checking the box. She is the CEO of Awaken, a leading provider of interactive DEI workshops, which she has consulted hundreds of organizations and top executives from Fortune 500, to tech giants, to spark meaningful change. As an immigrant queer woman of color, Michelle has been a lifelong social justice activist and has served on a variety of organizations, such as the San Francisco LGBTQ Speakers Bureau, SF human Rights Commissions Advisory Committee, and LYRIC nonprofit's board of directors. Her work has appeared on world renowned platforms, such as Harvard Business Review, Forbes, The New York Times and NPR. She has been named Medium's top writer in diversity three years in a row. Welcome to Honest HR, Michelle, how are you?
Michelle Kim:
I am hanging in there. I think it's hour by hour update these days. There's a lot going on, but I am safe and well, and I'm grateful for that.
Wendy Fong:
That is great to hear. Where are you sheltering in place these days?
Michelle Kim:
Oakland, California. How about you?
Wendy Fong:
San Mateo, California. So not too far from you in the Bay Area in California. SHRM actually has an office here in San Mateo, which is about 20 minutes south of San Francisco for people who don't know the area that well. It's just a two person office that was started a few years ago to serve the Northern California members. So if you're a member of SHRM in this area and you get the enhanced chapter benefits of all the local programming.
Michelle Kim:
That's awesome. And you all have grown that quite a bit in the last few years, right?
Wendy Fong:
Yeah, definitely. We have over 8,000 members now. So it's a very large group. Well, I'm excited to have you and have this conversation on such a hot topic.
Michelle Kim:
Yes.
Wendy Fong:
All right. So before we dive in, I want to share your story with our listeners. So you're an immigrant. You immigrated here to the United States as a teenager with your family from Korea. I'm always fascinated by what forces, push or pull, people to relocate to new geographical locations. So my parents, for example, immigrated here when they're in their twenties, back in the 1970s from Burma, now known as Myanmar, to follow "the American dream" to get a better education, better opportunities economically. So my siblings and I were the first generation to be born here in the Bay Area. So what led you and your family to immigrate?
Michelle Kim:
Well, thank you for sharing your story. I didn't know that about you and your family. So, that was a good glimpse into your story. So I immigrated to the US when I turned 13 and I actually came here with my little sister to be joined with my dad. So I grew up in a divorced family and my dad was living in the States ever since I was, I think, 8 years old, something like that. He came to the US earlier than any of us, and my mom stayed in South Korea. So growing up, I always wanted to have a united family. So I think it was a really tough experience for the young Michelle to always be visiting my dad in the US, and then seeing my mom in Korea, and missing each other all the time. So that's something that I remember as an immigrant person, as somebody with separated family members. I think that's such a huge part of my story.
So I came here to San Diego, that's where I landed, to live with my dad. My dad had been undocumented for roughly a decade. When he finally got his green card and had a little bit of financial stability, that's when he invited my sister and I to come here. For a very similar reason that they told me was you'll get a better education, better opportunity for economic success in the US compared to South Korea. So, that's what led me to be here. When I was in college, I worked all throughout and saved up money to bring my mom over here. By then, I was a citizen and I invited my mom to come here, and now she's in San Francisco with a green card, which I'm really grateful for.
Wendy Fong:
Oh, wow. That's amazing. So did you have to travel back and forth at all when you first came here, to visit your mom back in South Korea?
Michelle Kim:
Yes. And that's our family's financial history is that we would save up money so that we can buy that airfare ticket to go back and forth. I can't imagine how challenging it must have been for my mom, for her to be left in Korea by herself and to send her children to a foreign country for the betterment of their education. So I do think that sacrifice is such a familiar story, I think, in the immigrant family, and especially in the Asian American story. So that's also part of the experience that I had and my memories of visiting South Korea when I was living here. That's also so vivid.
I would go back to see my family and friends, and sometimes I would not want to come back because the experience of being an immigrant in the US was not a fun one for me, learning English, and especially at that age. It's hard enough to be a teenager, but trying to fit in while you're learning a new language and adapting to new customs and the ways that people see you and treat you, that's so vastly different. So I remember always feeling torn, but knowing that I knew subconsciously that my parents were making such a huge sacrifice and I didn't really know how it would translate. But I am grateful for the choices that they made and the fact that I was able to get an education and do what I do now.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah, definitely. I can't even imagine how lonely that must have been for your mother. You want to give your children everything, give them the best opportunity. Then send them along in a new country where you've never been, I can't even imagine what that must feel like. I have a 10 year old daughter and I get withdrawals when she has sleepovers at our cousin's house, like, how's she doing? Can they send me a text or send me a picture?
Michelle Kim:
Yes. It's not easy I can imagine. I don't have children. But even for me, it was in some ways a traumatic experience to have to be separated from one parent at all times. I knew that they weren't together as a married couple. But not being able to really reconcile their divorce, but with the ocean being in the middle of it, was also a really tough experience for sure.
Wendy Fong:
How long is that flight, by the way? I've never been to South Korea.
Michelle Kim:
Oh, it's about 10 hours. It's a little bit shorter one way than the other, but it's about 10 hours. So, it's a long flight.
Wendy Fong:
That is a long flight. So you talked about coming here at 13, middle school, that is a tough age just for anyone in general. But coming to a new country, like you said, learning a new language, a new culture. Can you tell us more about that experience into America as a 13 year old?
Michelle Kim:
Oh my goodness. Yeah. It's such an awkward time as a teenager, it's such an awkward time for a lot of people. It certainly was for me. So I think I was in sixth grade when I came. I remember being in the English as second language class. So I wasn't put in the same classes, other "regular" kids, regular classes. I took most of my classes as a part of the ESL, ELL now I think it's called, English language learner class. I just remember feeling really awkward and like an outsider. I think that experience also shaped the way that I experienced what it meant for me to belong in certain spaces. I remember being made fun, of course, for my accent or for not knowing how to say certain things. I remember feeling so fearful of making mistakes when I was talking to someone, and that I was going to be made fun of. It was definitely a time when I had to grow some thick skin to be okay being made fun of and to learn, and just really digest both the cultural shock as well as my need to survive.
I distinctly remember by seventh or eighth grade, I was determined to make friends who were white. I thought that was my key to assimilation. Looking back, it's a painful sort of decision a young Asian American person had to make because of the belief that in order for me to fully integrate into this country, I needed to shed my cultural identities and to be more white in order to be accepted. I remember thinking to myself I'm going to do this experiment where I'm just going to say yes and smile to everything that people say, and maybe that will help me make friends. And it worked.
I don't think that it was necessarily great friendship, but I was part of the circle of people who now were more interested in hanging out with me. I remember laughing at their jokes and going along with the flow and never challenging what they were saying and just smiling and laughing and saying yes to everything. I remember they would make me say certain words that was really difficult for me to pronounce. And when I would say the word, they would laugh and I would laugh with them.
When I look back, it's not pleasant because it's obviously they weren't laughing with me, they were laughing at me, and I was willing to sacrifice my own dignity and sense of self respect in order for me to feel like I could belong. So that's one of many memories that I can recall of the experience of what it meant for me as a teenager to want to fit in and to be liked and to be respected in this country. I see that stigma around immigrations and the xenophobia that we see with COVID-19 resurfacing some of those memories that I have.
Wendy Fong:
As humans, we all want to be accepted, and we all want to be accepted by everyone by who we are without having to change anything. Did you realize that at the time, or what was going on? Or you just really just wanted to be accepted, especially as a teenager?
Michelle Kim:
Yeah. I don't think that I had the analysis of what was going on necessarily, I think I just really wanted to fit in. I didn't want to be seen as someone who wasn't worthy of other people's friendship. I also needed to have groups of people who could support me with my homework because my dad was working and I didn't have anyone. No adult was looking over my shoulders to help me with my homework or to help me navigate the school system.
So I needed that network of people to survive. I think for me, being liked was one way for me to ensure that I had some type of safety net that I could fall on that wasn't my parents. Because for the most part, once I started really picking up English, I was the one who was helping translate things for my parents and almost having that reverse role of simultaneously being the parent for the family. So I think I needed some ways for me to get the support that I needed. At the time, I thought the way that I do that is by being liked by people who can help me.
Wendy Fong:
Definitely. Were there other Koreans at all at your school, or was it diverse at all?
Michelle Kim:
Yeah, and that's an interesting thing, because when I first came, I hung out with a lot of Korean Americans or Korean immigrants, actually. A lot of Korean folks who had immigrated right around the same age or a couple years before or after. It was a pretty tight knit group until when I started hanging out with the white kids in school. I was really extroverted, I tried to be as extroverted as possible. I was part of the student government body, I was part of the dance team in high school, and I was not accepted by my Korean friends anymore.
I remember someone very vividly saying, "You can't sit with us during lunch because you speak English with the white kids." So that was also a very jarring experience, almost not finding any sense of full belonging anywhere. You can't be white and you also aren't Asian enough. So that was an interesting experience for me, straddling different spaces and also having my own crisis of my identity. All of that happening all at the same time is my own coming out as a queer person, as a bisexual woman. So it was tumultuous teenage years for sure.
Wendy Fong:
Wow. That sounds like a journey.
Michelle Kim:
Yes, definitely.
Wendy Fong:
I could definitely relate as a teenager. I didn't immigrate here, but I went to a middle school that was predominantly Latino, Hispanic. So Asians were actually the minority, and so we would actually get called racial slurs for being Chinese or Asian. I remember there was a bullying school who would copy my homework because I was one of the smart kids in school. She said that she would help me be popular and be my friend. So, similar to what you experienced that I just wanted to be liked and accepted because I couldn't really find my niche group where I felt comfortable. So this went on for a little while, but then deep down inside, you know that's not right. This isn't right, this is not genuine. This is not a genuine relationship. She's using me and it's not right that I'm providing these answers for her.
So eventually I mustered up the courage to say, "No, I can't give you the answers anymore to the homework." And thankfully she did not put up a fight or anything and she just accepted it. But then we weren't friends anymore and all the popular kids didn't want to hang out with me anymore. But that was okay, I accepted that. I felt good. I felt like that was the right decision. I somehow found another group of friends that were considered the rejects in school, but you know what, they're good people. Sometimes teenagers can be cool with the cliques and the stereotypes and how we label people. It's almost interesting how much does that carry over to adult life?
Michelle Kim:
Oh, yeah.
Wendy Fong:
It's very explicit in middle school and high school, but sometimes we have to be careful and examine our relationships and how we stereotype people too as adults in the workplace.
Michelle Kim:
Oh yeah, for sure. I feel like sometimes the high school dynamics carry over to the workplace for sure.
Wendy Fong:
I did want to go back. You talked about your coming out story. If you feel comfortable sharing that, it sounds like it was a crazy time for you as a teenager. But I'm also interested in hearing how you came to that decision to come out.
Michelle Kim:
Yeah, absolutely. So growing up in South Korea, I was not exposed to any LGBTQ issues, communities, people, and what it really meant for someone to identify as a part of the community. I also had a good amount of internalized homophobia. So when I was on a dance team and I was having these feelings towards a girl, I was so confused. I thought there was something wrong with me. I was questioning my own identity and it was a challenging experience. But I couldn't shake off the feeling that I had, and the crush that I had was pretty strong. I remember buying her breakfast burritos because that was one of her favorite things. It was just a lovely feeling I had at towards this person.
I was incredibly lucky to have found a support group at my high school. It was an underground support group that was run by the school's programs office where every week you get to meet for an hour, instead of going to a class. That you get to go into this support group where other LGBTQ and questioning kids were there to chat with the support of the facilitator who was part of the school counselors group. That's when I realized so many things about myself, but also about the issues that are faced by LGBTQ communities. I started becoming really aware and passionate about fighting for justice, and that's when I really began my activism work as a young person. So I was part of the gay straight alliance in high school.
I eventually came out to my family. Mixed reactions. My mom was convinced that it was just a phase, so she just brushed it off. For my dad, he really did not want to engage in the conversation at all. So it's taken many years. It was only a couple years ago that he started really opening up and being curious about what it means for me to be queer.
So, I think especially in a household, for my household as an Asian American family, I think that concept of queerness is still a very foreign concept. So, many my cousins and uncles and aunts, they don't know that I am queer, and I don't think that's a conversation my parents would feel comfortable approaching yet. So we're working on it. So I came out when I was in high school and that's when I became politicized to really be an active participant in social justice work and was doing grassroots organizing work. I was a troublemaker in high school. I was getting good grades, but also organizing protests. I decided to go to Berkeley because of my passion for activism, which is where I graduated.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing your story, because I'm sure a lot of people have similar experiences, where I've heard where your family doesn't necessarily accept you and you feel rejected. I've heard stories of people getting kicked out of their house or denying it all together and not even talking about it. I know my uncle is gay, but I didn't realize that when I was younger, my parents always called him a hippie. So I thought, oh yeah, uncle Jimmy, he's just a hippie, whatever that means. He's from the 70s and likes to dance disco. I don't know, wear bell bottoms.
But then his partner moved in with him, and I'm like, wait. This is not just a roommate, this is his partner. I think he's gay. However they wanted to define it, they still accepted it for who he was. I just thought it's interesting how different people experience and interpret it through their own cultural lens, especially with Asian parents from different countries that immigrate to the United States.
Michelle Kim:
Yeah definitely, because I think being a or trans person in South Korea is still a huge risk. I think that there's still a lot of stigma and lack of awareness on the part of the mainstream audience. I think there's a lot of work to be done for us to close that gap. I think that having that cultural lens where me having that understanding of the cultural context back in South Korea, and how that has impacted my parents, helped me heal myself too. That it wasn't necessarily that they weren't accepting me for who I am or loving me for who I am, but that there needed to be a little bit more time. I'm one of the lucky ones to be able to actually even have these conversations.
Like you said, I know people who have been kicked out of their homes for coming out. I also know folks who still live in the closet because they know that coming out would mean that they would have to sever ties with their family members, which is incredibly painful. So, I think coming out is such a personal decision and it's so contextual. So I'm never one to advocate that everybody must come out if they want to be in solidarity with the rest of the community. I think it's a really important decision that each person gets to make. And the fact of the matter is, I come out every day because people make assumptions about my identity, and it's an ongoing practice. Doesn't have to look one way or another. I think it's a really courageous act, but it's also a privilege to be able to come out without fearing any negative repercussions.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. And like you said, there are stereotypes of someone who may not know anyone that's LGBTQIA+, they may have stereotypes of what they see on TV of what a gay person might look like. I remember for the longest time in the '90s or 2000, Will and Grace was the only gay person on TV or Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Very stereotypical image of what a gay person or lesbian person, queer person, looks like.
Michelle Kim:
Yeah. Even for me, when I came out, I so wanted to claim my identity as a queer woman, that I had a very brief butch phase that did not work for me. I was trying to rock cargo shorts and military pants and I had a fohawk. That was a fun time, but it did not work for me, and I am a proud fem.
Wendy Fong:
Well, and also you mentioned too, in high school, you had community. That's great to hear that there is a support group, a club at your school to provide that space where you could just have discussions and learn more about processing your emotions and hearing stories from other people's experiences, your peers.
Michelle Kim:
Absolutely. That's such a rare thing. I don't think that every school has it, and I was incredibly lucky to have found it through my biology teacher, who I knew was an openly lesbian teacher. I confided in her about my feelings when I started feeling them, because I frankly did not know anyone who identified as a gay or lesbian person. She was able to point me in a direction. And frankly, that support group really transformed my life. I was able to explore my feelings without judgment and shame, and I felt really held by that space. I know that, especially now, young people who might be in a similar position, it's really difficult to access services like this, especially in a pandemic. It's difficult period, but especially right now with the COVID-19 and pandemic situation, people are severely lacking access to services that they otherwise would've had a better chance of accessing.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah, definitely. Virtual in itself is difficult because as social creatures we need to interact physically, in person. I wanted to mention this article that I found on the John Hopkins Medicine, it's called For LGBTQ Patients, the Coronavirus Brings New Challenges, kind of like what you mentioned. So they talk about how LGBTQ patients are more likely than the general population to be smokers, which could compromise their lungs and make it more difficult to recover from a respiratory illness. They also mention that gender affirming surgeries have been postponed due to the re-tasking of personnel and resources to respond to COVID, and gender and sexual minority populations are already at increased risk for depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. So the isolation and loneliness of physical distancing can make it worse.
Michelle Kim:
Yeah. I think it's a really painful reality that these issues of access to medical care and having difficulty getting certain resources is already a reality for marginalized people, and especially queer trans people of color. These things are just becoming even more pronounced in a situation like this. For young people who might be sheltering in place, it's incredibly difficult for them to access online services even, even if it's available, when they are not out and especially if they don't have access to a private space. I think it's becoming really difficult for folks to also be in a home where they are not accepted by their family member. So I think there's a whole slew of layers and layers of issues that already marginalized people are having to endure during this time, and it's important for us to have that lens so that we can really understand the impact of this pandemic and how disproportionate that impact is on certain groups of people.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. Let's talk more about that. You mentioned earlier in your bio you contributed to publications like The New York Times, Forbes, Medium, NPR. I did want to highlight the article that you co-wrote in the Harvard Business Review with Laura Morgan Roberts, Courtney L. McCluney and Erin L. Thomas. The article is called How US Companies Can Support Employees of Color Through the Pandemic. So maybe we can talk more about the changes you've seen impacting employees of color and other marginalized communities, such as the LGBTQIA+, or QPOC, queer person of color, since the pandemic.
Michelle Kim:
Yeah. So I was really blessed to have been invited to co-write that alongside those incredible leaders who are doing amazing work out there, so I want to give them a shout out. I think what we tried to do was break down the problem, but also offer solutions that are multi-pronged. First acknowledging the issues that, right now, there are multiple forces impacting people of color in the US right now. Not only the pandemic as a health concern, but also an issue that is disproportionately impacting black and brown neighborhoods because of the concentration of essential workers being disproportionately black and brown people living in less resourced areas and how that is impacting people in the workplace in general. There's also the second pandemic of racism and police brutality that is happening that's getting a lot more attention than it got before, which it deserves. I think the psychological impact that's had on, especially the black community these days, has been incredibly difficult to witness.
Then I think in terms of parents, there's a lot of conversations around parents having to adapt to the new working conditions where they're not getting the support of the community and the schools in parenting their children and having to work a full-time job. So there are so many different factors that are contributing to people's ability to focus at work, or to be able to do their work. Also, the disproportionate and impact of layoffs being felt by women and people of color. So there are so many different forces at play right now, and I think employers are trying to be conscious about these realities that so many people are living in right now, by being thoughtful about their approach and changing their ways of supporting them.
Wendy Fong:
And you also mentioned the article that COVID has also exposed heightened anti-Asian racism in the US. You did mention that a little bit briefly. What have we seen so far since COVID?
Michelle Kim:
Yeah. Stop AAPI Hate is an organization that started collecting information about hate crimes that were experienced by Asian Americans. Within three months of opening that survey, they received over 1700 reports of hate crimes. The FBI has issued a warning about the increase in anti-Asian related hate crimes. So we see that there was an acid attack in New York. There are people targeting Asian Americans, especially elders, everywhere. The xenophobia that you experience. My friend was spat on, on the street, and was told to go back to his country.
Wendy Fong:
That's horrible.
Michelle Kim:
So there are these incidences that are happening, and it's not unlike some things that we've seen before whenever there is an economic crisis or a national crisis where we need a scapegoat. When people are fearful, our biases get activated in a way that could really overtake our logic. I think that's what's happening right now where the rhetoric around COVID being a China virus and the hateful rhetoric around immigrants bringing in diseases. It has long historical legacies where we think about when the Chinese immigrants were seen as disease carriers and people who are taking away other people's jobs and the Chinese Exclusion Act that took place that categorically banned immigration from China and other Asian countries thereafter, to when the AIDs and Ebola epidemic happened, the blame that went on to the African American communities and the LGBTQ communities.
So there are patterns that we observe where whenever there is a crisis, there tends to be a scapegoat, and usually it's a marginalized groups of people. Whether that's LGBTQ people, people of color, or immigrants and what have you. So I think that rise in anti-Asian hate crimes is just another example of this pattern that we've been witnessing for centuries.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah, definitely. I remember in college, I was part of a production where they did a story about Asian American hate crime back in the 80s. So it was in Detroit and there was a car factory, I think it was Datsun at the time, now it's Nissan, closed down. There's two white workers who were at a bar and they just got laid off and they saw a Chinese man there, Vincent Chin, at the bar and assumed you're Asian, even though Datsun is Japanese, and they scapegoated, they blamed him for losing their jobs and they beat him up and ended up killing him. It was a very emotional and impactful play at the time. It was definitely a story. These stories need to be told of the violence that can occur when xenophobia happens and when scapegoating can happen.
Michelle Kim:
Absolutely. I think it's important that we draw these similarities throughout history and into the workplace. So when we think about the hate crimes and the historical patterns of lumping Asians into a monolithic group. So that story that you just told about the murder of Vincent Chin, I think it's such an important event that we need to remember about how it doesn't matter whether we're Korean, Vietnamese, Burmese, Hmong or Japanese, we're are all seen as this one monolithic group called Asians. Erasing such diverse ethnicities and cultural backgrounds that we all harbor.
In the workplace, even when we think about collecting demographic data, we all get lumped into one category. I'm a huge proponent of making sure that we're disaggregating data so we get a more realistic picture of what's really happening, because although Asians are seen as overrepresented in the tech industry, when we really dissect the data, it's only certain types of Asians that are overrepresented in the tech industry compared to the population.There are still so many Pacific Islander folks, native Hawaiian folks, Southeast Asian folks, who are very underrepresented in the tech industry. But their stories rarely get told.
The idea of Asians doing well and taking away jobs from poor white people is another really dangerous rhetoric where we often hear about the model minority myth, where we are somehow able to pick ourselves up by the bootstraps and make American dream happen without needing any resources that African Americans and black people demand. That is the narrative that the white supremacy culture has been telling people. Look at the Asians, they're the good immigrants, they don't cause trouble. They're not political, they don't disrupt the status quo. They just work hard and they make it work. Versus look at the bad people of color who are causing trouble, who are out there protesting. That rhetoric was created in the 60s when we looked at the civil rights movement. It was a deliberate attempt to draw a wedge between Asian Americans and black Americans who were at the forefront of the civil rights movement.
So I think when we look at these historical legacies and how that plays out in the workplace even today, we can see that there is a lot of unlearning that we need to do. That we are actually, in fact, all part of the same system that is hurting different marginalized groups, and that no one group is superior than the other. In fact, we need to work together to dismantle the harmful white supremacy culture in order for all of us to succeed and benefit from justice and equity for all.
Wendy Fong:
Certainly, and especially in the workplace. How can we create change if we don't have those conversations first? And recognize the inequities that are going on and just be realistic about it and not be in denial of the facts.
Michelle Kim:
That's right. That's the core of why I decided to start Awaken with a co-founder, where we were just so tired of seeing diversity trainings that barely scratched the surface. That felt so diluted, whitewashed and didn't push people to be challenged. I think we've come a long way. I think the industry is evolving, and I think a lot of companies are starting to take more bold stances on these issues. But for a very long time, diversity and inclusion was seen as a compliance exercise. How do we not get sued for discriminating against people of color or women? How do we make sure that we have the bare minimum threshold for meeting the legal requirements? I think we are well beyond that point. In order for us to truly create an equitable and inclusive workplace, we actually need to go much deeper than the surface level conversations, and actually be willing to sit in uncomfortable conversations that's going to challenge our thinking, help us reach across the differences, and be able to connect at a much more real, authentic and resilient level.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. So when did you see that shift? I know you started Awaken back in 2017. When did you see that shift for that need to have those deeper conversations rather than just being compliant?
Michelle Kim:
I think it's always been an issue. I remember when I was in corporate America and then tech thereafter, sitting in a diversity training and just rolling my eyes the entire time, because I felt like we weren't talking about the real issues. I knew that people were going to walk away feeling good about themselves after having taken a course, and now thinking that they are the most inclusive individuals in the company. What that did for me was create this cognitive dissonance that there are so many good intended people trying to do better when it comes to diversity and inclusion, and yet the education and the emotional labor burden kept falling on the most marginalized people in the workplace. So, I really wanted to shift that.
I think right now, ever since the murder of George Floyd, there is this renewed commitment and desire for companies to want to go to places that they hadn't gone before, because they saw talking about race and anti black racism and even uttering the words white supremacy felt too risky. So I think we still see cautiousness coming from the corporate space. But I am seeing more and more leaders being bold and feeling more courage to be able to take a bold stance because that's what their consumers, their employees, and everybody who's watching are requiring and expecting of them.
Wendy Fong:
You write in your article in Medium called Urgently Looking for Anti-racism Training for Your Company? Start Here. And you write, "Diversity equity inclusion has always been important and always will be. Black people getting murdered by police is not new, this has always been urgent. The issue of racism and systematic oppression have always been urgent. The need for DEI education in the workplace has always been urgent and necessary, as was the need for leaders to acknowledge the daily marginalization of their black employees inside their companies."
So now in George Floyd times, like you said, it's almost an exciting time. It's not new that this has been happening. We talk about, for centuries, this whole country was founded on slavery, let's be honest, and racism. But with the COVID times or [inaudible 00:43:24] in place, George Floyd times, we're almost in a new era where we can have these conversations more openly. Where people are demanding that we have these open in conversations. You know what? I'm tired of being marginalized. I'm tired of holding back on my discomforts, or comments that bother me, or being the only person of color in a room, or being the only woman person of color in a room at times.
Michelle Kim:
Yeah. I think what's really painful to recognize is that it took so many brutal murders of innocent black people for us to get here. That was the cost. Still, while there is this new sense of reckoning, I already see companies and leaders treading back to the status quo. So just to give you a sense for what we experienced in the midst of the racial reckoning was that in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, by June, our year over year growth in terms of the leads that we were getting on our website, jumped by over 1000%. And within three months, we got over 800 different organizations reaching out to my small company for help with their DEI education and strategy.
Then in the recent months, I'm already seeing a 50% decline in the number of leads compared to the month of June and July. So, things are shifting very quickly. We already see, and I just saw a report that said that the interest on Black Lives Matter among white Americans is declining already. So I'm hopeful, and I am cautiously optimistic, that we are going to see some changes happen in the way that we're approaching this conversation, the kinds of companies that are really willing to do the hard work to be bold and to be on the right side of history. I think that we're going to have to do a lot of work to sustain the movement and the momentum that this convergence of multiple traumas has created.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. SHRM has a recent initiative called Together Forward @Work. It's a call to action to bring racial equity to the workplace. We have free resources and articles for HR, executives, people managers, and emerging professionals. We've created a blue ribbon commission on racial equity to discuss initiatives that can successfully support diverse recruitment practices, the retention of diverse workforces and other workplace DE&I matters. So if you just look up online SHRM Together Forward @Work, hopefully there're resources for different groups out there to access that SHRM has provided to continue this conversation on racial equity.
Michelle Kim:
Yeah. I think right now is not only a time when people are rushing to learn more, but also questioning who do I really want to be in this moment? What kind of company do we want to be, and where do we want to stand on this issue? So I think that's a huge trend that I'm observing everywhere, this existential questioning that's happening, both at the individual level, but also at the organizational level.
Wendy Fong:
So what advice would you give to an HR professional who is just starting in their career? How can they be more of an ally and support those conversations as well as support employees of color and other marginalized communities during the pandemic?
Michelle Kim:
Yeah. I think paying attention to these stories would be really helpful as a way to gain insight into how people can support marginalized communities. Instead of making assumptions about any type of ways that we can support each other, really listening and soliciting feedback. There's a lot of resources that are out there currently that can point people in the right direction. I really think that to be an ally, most of that work is on you to educate yourself on what is happening and ensuring that you're listening to the marginalized groups' needs. I think at some point it's important for everyone, not just HR folks, but everyone in the company, not even in the company, to start thinking about who do I want to be? What are my values? And what am I willing to give up and risk in order to stay in alignment with those values that I have?
So as an HR professional, we often hear the critique that HR is there to protect the company, not the employees. I'm a believer that people who go into HR care about employees. I want to believe that, and I want to advocate for people who truly do care about employees, rather than solely for the purpose of protecting the company from getting sued. Now I've met those types of HR professionals as well. I think it's really harmful when the interest of HR folks is solely the protection of the company, because in the long run I don't think it's actually in the best interest of the company to be approaching the practice that way and the discipline that way.
But for folks who are genuinely in favor of providing the best possible experience for their employees, I think now is a time to really critically think about what are the values that I should be guided by, in approaching different situations? Whether it be benefits, or policies, or escalations, or reports of incidents, what are the values I should be guiding us in making decisions every step of the way? And what are some risks that we're willing to take in order to be on the right side of history?
So I would leave them with those questions so that people can really start making some bolder decisions and also taking risks that they haven't been able to take before, just because of the ways that our systems are set up, but also because of the challenges associated with challenging the status quo.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah. Or even in hiring too, the type of people you're interviewing-
Michelle Kim:
That's right.
Wendy Fong:
... hiring, promoting, training.
Michelle Kim:
Compensation. All of it.
Wendy Fong:
Yeah, exactly. And we could have a whole other podcast about that. Even on the business case for why bringing DE&I into your workplace and workplace values is important as well. I'll bring you back on for that.
Michelle Kim:
Sounds good. We can talk all day.
Wendy Fong:
Okay. Yes. So do you think that would be the same advice you would give to a person of color? I'm person of color or I'm LGBTQIA, or a QPOC person, would you give me the same advice as well if I don't see my organization and leadership making the type of changes that I want to see towards racial equity?
Michelle Kim:
Yeah. I would say it's slightly different in that my primary message to any marginalized person right now, especially if you're black or brown or Asian or person of color, or you're part of the queer and trans community or disabled community, native community, there's a lot going on. I think for people who are constantly living on the margin, we have to learn to take care of ourselves and prioritizing our wellbeing over getting today's to-dos done.
So my primary message would be to really practice that self-compassion and self care so that you can prioritize your mental and physical wellbeing. When it comes to creating change from within, I think it's so powerful when we can see coalition building happen. Meaning when we see different marginalized communities come together to fight for one another and to stand in solidarity, linking arms, I think that's when we get to see real change happen because there is more power when we come together.
So what I've seen during this time, that's been really inspiring for me to see, is Asian Americans coming together with black employees, and seeing Asian ERGs working alongside black ERGs to fight for Black Lives Matter. Or LGBTQ community and the people of color community coming together to fight for justice for trans people of color who are being murdered. I think these moments are what makes us really question our values and also gives us the sense of possibility of what can happen when we can join forces and build coalition to build upon this momentum so that it can be sustained. Finding that community that I had when I was in high school and college, and I continue to cultivate today, has been the source of my own perseverance and joy.
That's the hope that I have for so many people right now, because we're currently in physical isolation, but we don't have to be isolated from each other mentally or emotionally. So when we can come together with issues around racial justice, or social justice more broadly, I think that there's a lot of opportunity for us to regain hope and a sense of community and also joy in being able to be connected, and that's what I want to leave people with.
Wendy Fong:
Absolutely. And that is the beauty also of living in the United States, that there's so much diversity. And if you're able to find your community and find the unity that can bring us all together, I think we could do great things together.
Michelle Kim:
Absolutely
Wendy Fong:
You kind of alluded to this as well, in talking about what you see for DEI in 2021?
Michelle Kim:
If I could look into the crystal ball and predict what's going to happen in 2021, I think many of those things are going to remain the same in terms of the trends that I'm observing in the market right now. There's going to be an increased focus on ensuring that we are able to connect with remote workforce, which means that we also have to be cognizant of the different ways that we can support marginalized employees that are working remotely or virtually in different locations.
There's also going to be a huge focus on going beyond the business case of diversity to really taking a stand on the issues of social justice as a moral imperative. The expectation from employees and consumers are only going to increase. The pressure is already being felt by leaders of organizations everywhere, from small startups to Fortune 500 giant companies and corporations, the need for leaders to be more conscious and be adept at navigating the social justice territory is only going to increase.
So I see that as a really urgent and imminent task at hand for a lot of leaders out there who may have delayed their education on learning about these issues and are now afraid to speak because they don't want to make a mistake or they don't want to say the wrong things. I implore folks to start practicing and start learning and start listening and really doing the real work of becoming inclusive leaders themselves so that they can continue to lead in a time like this when these issues are not going to go away, they're only going to escalate.
Wendy Fong:
Well, that sounds really exciting. Well, Michelle, this has been an absolute delight. How can our listeners find you and connect with you?
Michelle Kim:
Thank you. Yes. This has been such a fun conversation and thanks for all your thoughtful questions. Folks can follow me on all social media platforms. I'm the most active on LinkedIn, and you can follow me there. You can just Google search Michelle Kim Awaken and it'll pop up. And on Twitter, I'm @mjmichellekim, and I am also on Instagram, @michellekimkim. And our website is www.visionawaken.com, where you can subscribe to our newsletter where you'll hear updates and best practices and tips that we share. We try to do a monthly cadence, but often we do it in a longer cadence than that.
Wendy Fong:
And also you're writing a book. What will it be about? And when will it be released?
Michelle Kim:
Oh, thank you for mentioning that. Yes, it's really exciting. So for those of you who've been following my work, I do write often, I try to keep up to date with what's going on, on Medium, which is another place that you can follow my work. But I am writing a book and it is called The Wake Up: Closing the Gap Between Good Intentions and Real Change. The book is going to be about how all of us, regardless of where we are, whether we're in the workplace, whether we are a CEO or an intern or a student or blue collar worker, whatever form and sphere that we occupy, we can create change from where we are. It's about guiding people to do that real work of changing ourselves before we go out and try to change anyone else. So I'm really excited about it. We don't have a publishing date yet, we just finalized the deal. So I will make sure to update you and send out messages when we do have a set date.
Wendy Fong:
Well, I can't wait to read it when it comes out, and we'll have to bring you back on this show to talk more about it.
Michelle Kim:
Yes. Thank you so much.
Wendy Fong:
Yes. Thank you. So we've come to the end of our show. Thank you again, Michelle, so much for being here, and thank you listeners for listening.
Guess what? By listening to this episode, you have earned one PDC, or professional development credit, toward your SHRM certification. Just enter the activity code 21 V as in victory, W as in winner, Q as in quilt, F as in Friday, and T as in time, and the original published date of March 25th 2021.
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