<p><b>Listen to this episode because there is an art and science side to addressing age diversity in the workplace.</b> On the one hand, it can hinder your organizational culture if you're too focused on varying generations. The balance is in figuring out what are those differences and how the team/(organization) can benefit from each other and create a positive multi-generational culture. </p><p>What does it look like to allow people to tell their stories and bring their WHOLE SELVES to work; their experiences, past jobs, and way of thinking? How careers shape up is just different now. <br /><br /></p><p>Bust out the pen ladies and gentlemen, it's time to take notes.</p><p><br /><b>Key episode takeaway:</b> "As our workforce continue to change, and as our communities grow, we need to be more open to the way people think, not just how they look and how old they are. Your vibe attracts your tribe. Focus on what it means to work for your company." <br /><br />---<br /><b>EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING</b><br />Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while you earn professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All you have to do is listen to a full mini-series to earn PDCs! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast recording itself.<br /><br />The Honest HR podcast is only one of SHRM's podcast offerings. And currently, it is the only one approved for recertification PDCs.<br />---<br /><b>This episode is Part 2 of a three-part series. </b>When you listen to all parts of the series, you are eligible to receive PDCs for your participation.</p>
Listen to this episode because there is an art and science side to addressing age diversity in the workplace. On the one hand, it can hinder your organizational culture if you're too focused on varying generations. The balance is in figuring out what are those differences and how the team/(organization) can benefit from each other and create a positive multi-generational culture.
What does it look like to allow people to tell their stories and bring their WHOLE SELVES to work; their experiences, past jobs, and way of thinking? How careers shape up is just different now.
Bust out the pen ladies and gentlemen, it's time to take notes.
Key episode takeaway: "As our workforce continue to change, and as our communities grow, we need to be more open to the way people think, not just how they look and how old they are. Your vibe attracts your tribe. Focus on what it means to work for your company."
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EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING
Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while you earn professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All you have to do is listen to a full mini-series to earn PDCs! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast recording itself.
The Honest HR podcast is only one of SHRM's podcast offerings. And currently, it is the only one approved for recertification PDCs.
---
This episode is Part 2 of a three-part series. When you listen to all parts of the series, you are eligible to receive PDCs for your participation.
Callie:
Hey everybody. And welcome back to Honest HR. This is your host Callie Zipple, Field Service Director with SHRM at responsible for Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, and Wisconsin. I am excited to be right smack dab in the middle of mini series number four on diversity. Last episode you heard us, Jeremy and I, Jeremy York and I, talk about the business case for diversity and inclusion. This week we're going to continue the conversation by talking to my friend, Alexis, about generations in the workplace. If you've been with us before, you know that we are now offering PDCs for listening to the episodes. Since I mentioned this was part two of many series four, I will give you a spoiler alert and let you know that there's one more episode coming after this one. So this is our middle episode in miniseries number four on diversity and inclusion.
Alexis, thank you so much for being here today. Give us a little bit of an overview of who you are, and then I'll revisit sort of what today's topics are all about and we'll jump right into the questions.
Alexis:
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for having me, Callie. As Callie said, my name is Alexis Fiocchi I'm an HR business partner. Kelly and I have actually worked together, and she'll get into that and how we've worked together in the past. But really excited to be here and talk to everyone about diversity. I think it's one of those topics that can be kind of icky at times. I got my start in HR in recruitment, so that's really been kind of my core. I recently went from a generalist role to an HR business partner role, and I've really found my passion in working with startup companies, with more immature HR functions. Really kind of helping build that foundation, so I'm excited to be here.
Callie:
Yeah, and one of the crazy things about the relationship I have with Alexis is that we actually worked together twice. The first time we worked together was on a HR shared service team. Then we actually came back together at another organization, Downtown Chicago, where I was her boss. And guess what, everybody?We're still friends. So it happened to work out really well for us. And to Alexis's point, I said this in the episode with Jeremy, but diversity and inclusion is a tough topic for some people to discuss. I'll be honest that it's a tough one for me. I'm not an expert in diversity and inclusion. It's something that I want to continue to get better at and continue to lean into. So I'm excited to have conversations like the one I had with Jeremy, the one I'm having today with Alexis, and then our third episode with a gentleman named Clint.
Really excited to sort of jump into what diversity and inclusion means from a, drum roll please, generations in the workplace perspective. I don't know if you know this, but if you look around your office, you will see roughly five, maybe even six generations that you're currently working with. We have people ranging from near babies to near retirement within our workplaces. So generations and sort of leaning into the age diversity is something that we hear a lot about. I think for me, I've seen a lot of organizations struggle with the fact that we have so many different generations in the workplace. Alexis, I turn it over to you to sort of talk about how might that be a problem for organizations, working through how many generations we have in the workplace? And how to sort of make sure our communication means and our projects and all of that stem each generations that we have.
Alexis:
Yeah, absolutely. I think this can be a really hard topic, because I think it's a conversation that not everyone sees eye to eye on, which not many topics do people do. But it can really be kind of taken in a negative stance. We're really bombarded with a lot in the media taking stances on different generations. I know there's an awful lot and I'll self-identify, I am by definition of millennial. There tends to... At least I see a lot of articles out there really kind of in that negative light. So we kind of see this positive stuff and breaking through in different generations, what they're bringing to the workforce. We're also really highlighting the differences. I think what I've really gathered just from my experience on the HR side in the workplace is really there's this art and science side to addressing generations.
We definitely really want to celebrate our differences, and cross-generational teams make really great successful working teams. We all bring in different walks of life, different skill sets, different ways of thinking about things. I think that's really kind of the art side of it. We're really celebrating it, just like with any sense of diversity. Any diversity you can bring into a team, it can be great. But there's also the science side that's really kind of divided us. More of what are these characteristics? We all see articles and things that kind of describe us and our different generations. I've definitely read an article about millennials and I'm like, "Yep, that's kind of myself too." So there's definitely a reason that stuff's out there, but I think it can get kind of icky for people because we have people that really identify with some of that. Some people that don't, and when we're too laser focused on the differences, you're not focusing on the team as a whole and really why everyone's there.
I definitely think it can hinder your culture if you're too focused on it, but it doesn't do you any justice to not think about those things in some cases. I think it's really kind of this art and science and really kind of striking that balance and what works for your culture.
Callie:
I couldn't agree more. The thing I think that organizations might struggle with is pigeonholing people. Considering a one size fits all as it relates to an age demographic. I think about organizations that have internship programs and only target young professionals or emerging professionals or new to the profession individuals for those programs. But there are things, people wanting to return to the workplace after taking some time off, like a sabbatical or to care for their children. I think we need to be a little bit more open to the way people think rather than the way people look or how old they are and all these other things. I think that's not just specific to generations and it's not just specific to age diversity. It's specific to all types of diversity, but I think age is just such an easy thing to say, "Oh, you grew up at this time. So this movie resonates with you, or this type of technology resonates with you." We need to sort of get out of that mindset and realize that everybody relates to or reacts to things differently regardless of what sort of age they happen to be.
Alexis:
Couldn't agree with that more, too. I think it really all goes back to culture, too. Right. I think it's really kind of anchoring what does it mean to be successful at your company and no matter what generation you're from, if that's what you stand for as a company you're going to track like-minded people, and they're going to be from all different types of generations.
Callie:
Yeah. And Jeremy's episode two weeks ago now, I think, or maybe even last week, depending on when we dropped it, he mentioned this diversity of thought mentality. It's not just about the way we look or how old we are or any of those sort of physical characteristics that differentiate us. It's the way we think about things. If we can tap into that diversity of thought, we become a, to your point, organization that has a culture that supports that. I think that's when we are most ultimately productive, I would say.
Alexis:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it doesn't do us justice to think about, all right, we're trying to recruit millennials. Lets get fun things in the office and lets promote flex hours and things like that. When has that ever worked out or been a strategic initiative for anyone that's really kind of paid off? It's really kind of about, like you said, finding what is our core? Are we entrepreneurs at heart, and lets go find those people no matter who they are and what type of package they come in.
Callie:
Yeah. That's a perfect segue to our next sort of topic in conversation, because as our workforces continue to change and as our communities continue to grow and we're able to reach more individuals via technology and different types of technology, we need to rethink the way that we recruit candidates. If we are creating a culture that allows for us to speak to the type of organization we are, then we need to weave that into our recruitment process. But more importantly, we need to lean into different technologies that are going to help us be a little bit more successful in the recruitment process. So what are some ways that recruiters or HR practitioners or organizations in general need to rethink the way that we are approaching the whole recruitment process?
Alexis:
Yeah, I think we're kind of at this crossroads, and it's probably been going along for a while, but we're definitely kind of feeling it right now these past few years as the market is so competitive out there. But the times of posting and praying are over. Just putting up a job description, that won't do you just about any good out there, and sometimes it still works out. But you really have to focus on your employment brand. It's huge to not only be an employer of choice and make sure that you align with what that candidate's looking for, whatever it may be. They're going to be judging you based on your media presence. People have more access to information about companies than ever before. As a candidate myself being out there in the market before, you're going out and you're going on the Glass Doors and the Indeeds, whatever it may be, the LinkedIns of the world, and you're kind of formulating that opinion if it's somewhere you even want to apply before you're even making that decision, if you're going to waste time filling out that application.
So really kind of laser focused on that presence online is huge, because people are going to be judging that right out of the gate. But I also think we need to, as recruiters and HR professionals, really kind of think outside the box. It's so competitive out there. We have more and more people that are leaving the market and they're starting up businesses on their own. They're consulting. We have people, and I've been there myself, that just have preferred to do contracting will just take on project work. And this whole thing of loyalty to a company is really kind of turning back on the candidate, and what's best for their career, and what is the next thing that they want to take on and tackle. And we don't see people staying with companies long enough.
How do we really look at a resume now and be able to validate that in our recruitment process, without judging people. I, myself, if you look at my resume, it'll probably seem like I'm a job hopper. But I've had contracting jobs and I've made moves and things like that, and are we really going to hold those candidates back and say that we are not going to look at them because of that? It's kind of having this new lens on where the market's really trending and what's really happening from a candidate perspective.
Callie:
I love that. I can totally identify with your job hopper comment, because if you were to look at my background too, I've had a lot of jobs. But when I look at each of the jobs that I had and the reason that I left the one prior to that job, it all makes sense to me. And if you allow for me to have a conversation with you and tell you my story, it'll make sense to you too. I think we need to get to a place where HR and recruiters are understanding that, and they're ready to have those conversations or willing to have those conversations, rather. Because to your point, it's not just the millennials that are going to be job hopping like that. It's not just the millennials wanting to start their own businesses and then maybe consider reentering the corporate structure later on.
It's our individuals who are considering retirement, too. They might want to do some consulting or enter the gig economy, if you will. There's a lot of different things that we need to consider. The questions like, "Why did you spend only a year in your last position?" Or "Why are you looking for a change after six months?" We need to be a little bit more open to the types of responses that we might get to those questions, because the way people's careers shape up now is just different than it has been in the past. So we need to be open and ready for that as well from a recruiter perspective.
Alexis:
Yeah, absolutely. Speaking from a candidate perspective too, just to kind of like segue from that. Job hopping is... It's also kind of this controversial topic. By no means do I ever want to portray yourself as someone who's not stable and going from job to job. That's definitely not the case, but I've had contract opportunities and it's like, "How do you put that on your resume?", I landed in a role that after three months just wasn't right for me and it wasn't doing the company justice or me to stay there. I learned a whole lot and I never regret taking that role. But for a long time I didn't put it on my resume, because I thought maybe it's better to just look like I was having a transition for three months than I stepped into the wrong opportunity. And now that's probably on my resume because I did learn a whole lot there. And I learned a lot about myself and the type of role. It's not something that I can see myself doing long term, so I stepped out of that.
I think it's, like you said, allowing candidates to really kind of tell that story from a candidate perspective. I've definitely taken the route of avoiding that conversation, and that's never paid out. It's when I've had those honest conversations with recruiters, like, "Here's what happened. I landed in a service center and I wasn't someone who could sit and talk on a phone all day. I really missed face to face interaction. So here I am back in the market." A pretty valid thing, and self-awareness to know that's not where you're going to be successful, so that's not where you'll see me applying again. It's a lesson learned, and I always think back, as long as you learned a lesson and I took away a lot from that opportunity, that it's not always a bad thing.
Callie:
No, and we talk about a lot about this, and I think Jeremy and I maybe even had touched on it in our past episode. But the new generations, the next generations, want to bring, and I'm saying this in quotes, their "whole selves" to work. And if we don't allow for them to put resumes together that speak to their experience and help us understand where they've come from and some of the things that they've done in their past jobs or their career or whatever, we're not being true to allowing them to bring their whole selves to that conversation. So will they look at our organization as an organization they want to work at? Probably not. So I think that's a great point.
Alexis:
Yeah, and just like you said, just from a recruitment standpoint, that's when I've had some of the best breakthrough conversations with candidates. When it goes beyond just the surface, which a lot of conversations do, whether it be in phone screens or face to face with candidates, that's when you really kind of find out if someone's going to tap into your culture and want to be there, and it's going to be a great culture fit for you. I always say, as long as you've got your story lined up from your perspective, and you don't have to be an open book with recruiters, but really kind of be honest and be vulnerable. I think a lot of people do really understand some of the times when you have been in one of those job hopping situations.
Callie:
Yeah, agreed. And actually, I think next episode with Clint, we talk about allowing for vulnerability to drive some conversations that you may not be comfortable having right now, but at some point in your career, at some point with an employee, you're going to have to get there. I love your comment on vulnerability, and frankly, it pairs very nicely with both Jeremy's and Clint's episode four of this mini series. The next comment I think I want to make, and it comes back to something you said earlier about admittedly we're millennials. I hate putting a title on the fact that I am a millennial, and I think that's a very millennial thing for me to say. But talking about generations in the workplace is a real struggle for me, and I often avoid presentations that use generations in the title, because I feel like I'm walking into a conversation where they're going to tell me something that I already know about myself, or don't agree with about myself.
I think that is something that other people resonate with as well. We've all been in a presentation where somebody says, "Millennials are like this", or "Baby boomers are like this," and we either agree or disagree with that. If we disagree, we're on our heels and we're sort of checked out from the conversation. I think organizations in general need to do a better job of sort of allowing for culture to drive the way people feel in their organizations, regardless of the generation or age that they are. What sort of suggestions can you think of for HR professionals to identify policies or programs that sort of span all generations and aren't necessarily speaking specifically to our gen Zs or millennials or baby boomers?
Alexis:
I think one of the best ways, and it's not rocket science, but it's listen to your people. I'm a huge advocate for engagement surveys. I think it's a great way to get a pulse on your organization and really let the voices of all employees be heard in a safe way where people feel that they can really be truthful. With that said, engagement surveys are one of those things once you get that feedback, you really have to act on. So if you're not quite there yet, it's a big undertaking and a pretty big initiative when you're going to roll that out. I think a great way is pulse surveys. I've always been a believer. It doesn't really matter if it's a small decision that we're making as a company or a large one. For example, we got new snacks in the kitchen. We sent out a quick Survey Monkey survey to everyone. What do you guys want to see? Engagement in things like that is always over 80%. People want to be heard. They want to know that they're have a say in what's going on in the office, and they really value that.
Callie:
Especially when it comes to food.
Alexis:
Absolutely, it's really important. But especially... We went through benefits enrollment, and we were at a point where we're kind of leveling up and it's, "Hey guys, do you want to see PPOs, HMOs, HSAs? What's of interest? How can we educate?" I just always think that there's such an ROI on reaching out and getting that feedback from your employee base, no matter what it is. Then people feel like they're involved. They know what's going on behind the scenes when we're making decisions, rolling out new programs and policies. It's kind of that precursor, right before something becomes something in the office and we're educating everyone and we're rolling out policies, initiatives, whatever it may be. People know what's coming, and they feel like they were part of that and involved in that. I think that's huge and it's something that everyone in the workplace gets to be a part of, and it's really going to speak to the best interest of all your employees, not just any specific generation.
Callie:
And what a great way to look at those results and say, "Okay, if we did this thing, only gen Zs would resonate with it. Or if we did this thing over here, only baby boomers would resonate with it." I think that's a great point. If I'm thinking of examples for policies that sort of span all generations, one great one that I talk about quite a bit with chapters is workplace flexibility. When I say workplace flexibility, I'm not talking about 100% telecommute. I know that's part of most people's workforce flexibility campaigns or programs, but it's not the only thing that you can implement from a workplace flexibility perspective that resonates with all generations. It could be anything from summer hours. Everybody loves summer hours. Everybody loves to get out early on Fridays. And if they don't, maybe there's a different aspect of the workplace flexibility policy or program that resonates with them. But you don't know that until you ask the question.
Another thing that we actually talked about on a previous podcast episode is financial wellness or student loan repayment. Those are two other things that we've already had conversations about, but that span generations. Everybody can benefit from and might be interested in programs or policies like that, that don't segregate by generations. If I'm thinking of some examples for our HR professionals or HR practitioners, those are some great ones to sort of consider as you're trying to include everyone regardless of age.
Alexis:
Yeah, absolutely. I know a lot of the times, like with... It came up in a conversation the other day. I'm a big advocate for flexible hours. Work when you're most efficient. And someone said like, "Oh well, that's just, because you're a millennial that you think that." And it kind of goes back to your comment earlier. It's kind of a weird comment to make to people, and I'm with you. It kind of rubbed me the wrong way, too. It was like, "Hmm, I don't really think it's just because of my age." It's just work when you're most efficient, and I think there's a whole lot of people from all different generations that feel that way, too.
Callie:
There are so many things I think of that I've heard, "Oh, you only want that or like that because you're a millennial." Then I talk to other people that aren't millennials who like or dislike that same thing, and I'm like, "So why did that person over there say I wanted or liked that thing because I was a millennial?" It drives me bananas. One of the other things that I've heard this about is technology. I want to be able to interact with a brand via an app. That doesn't make me a millennial. Everybody... I shouldn't say everybody, because I know that my parents absolutely would not understand what I'm talking about right now, but there are people that aren't millennials that also want to interact with brands or customer service or just applications that have to do with companies or organizations, and they're not millennials.
I completely agree with that statement. And I think, if I'm segueing into our next topic of conversation, highlighting differences doesn't necessarily do us any favors. I think sometimes when we say, "Oh, you just want that or like that because you're a millennial", it's automatically identifying or highlighting a difference in us and the individual who's making that comment. One of the things that I love to suggest is highlighting similarities across generations, rather than sort of highlighting those differences. So if we did this right, if our organizations did this right, what in your opinion, do you think it would look like?
Alexis:
I think it would just be a lot more inclusive. I think it would be a much healthier culture. I think if you get to the point when you're not thinking about, "Oh, so and so thinks that because they're a millennial", or, "Oh, we're turning into this millennial culture", whatever it may be. And I say that because I'm a millennial and I feel like I'm most sensitive and I hear it come up a lot in conversation, but I'm sure it happens to other generations as well. But I think that wouldn't be a thing anymore. People would just be talking as a company. That's our culture. That's what resonates to us. That's what works for our people and our team and our philosophies and our mission. I think it wouldn't even be really much of a conversation anymore if it was successful. We wouldn't be focused on this generational difference in the workplace. It would be more just what works for our companies, and really celebrating those differences in a positive way, rather than some of the stuff we're bombarded with in the media, that comes up in conversations as well, that takes us to a more negative light.
Callie:
And I think one way organizations are maybe highlighting differences, but also highlighting similarities at the same time is via things called reverse mentoring programs. Instead of putting somebody who's less experienced with a more experienced individual and prescribing the young individual to learn from the old individual, putting them into a reverse mentoring experience makes both of them learn. It makes the older or more experienced individual learn from the younger individual, and vice versa. So that's another great way that although we are highlighting differences, we're also putting them into a similar learning experience by having to, or inviting them to learn from each other. I think that's another great opportunity for us to consider as we're trying to bridge this age gap between people. Consider a reverse mentoring program. I've seen it very successful with a less experienced individual maybe by way of years, stand in front of a room of more experienced individuals and teach them about social media.
We've seen in videos, and I can attest to my own parents' ability to identify with different social media platforms, but they could really benefit. Think of our recruiters. We have recruiters who are super experienced in the field, but don't necessarily know how to effectively use Facebook or effectively tweet at somebody who might be a great candidate for a position that we have available. So what a wonderful opportunity for us to use a reverse mentoring experience to bring everybody together and help them find similarities on a new social media platform, for example.
Alexis:
No, and I think that idea is so cool. I haven't seen it in an environment that I've been in yet, but I think mentoring just in itself is such a positive thing. And the sense of reverse mentoring just seems cool, to kind of give that younger generation a chance to kind of feel like they have something to bring to the table and teach to the workplace, whatever it may be that's valued there. That's something I hope to see soon. That would be definitely a cool thing to actually see in play. From my own experience, I've been fortunate to have mentors that have always had that type of philosophy too, and are like, "Hey, I want to learn from you as much as you're learning from me." And just what I've gained from that has been really cool. It makes everyone feel good when you're able to give back to those you're learning from.
Callie:
It makes you feel like you're adding value to the organization and to the team in general. I think the most beneficial experiences I've had... Because I'm not super experienced either. I think we're both similarly experienced, but both have some years and some teeth to grow yet in the HR space. But if I'm thinking back to the times that I've learned the most, it's also being given an opportunity to teach, or to bring other people along on a project that I've been made the head of or the leader of. So if I'm thinking or looking at some other individuals who maybe don't have a ton of experience, ask for some opportunities to lead and teach. It does help you grow and helps you sort of build your resume from a leadership and or development perspective as well.
Alexis:
Absolutely. I think it's always positive for the cultures too, as you're kind of working with people coming from different walks of life, different generations, different cultures and past experiences. It always values, everyone is really tapped into how others in the organization are thinking, where they're coming from, and just makes for more effective teamwork, I think. And just to understand, even if it's from your own HR department or someone in another department, that value add is huge.
Callie:
Completely agree. Well hey, we are... We made it through all of our questions. Is there anything that we missed or anything you wanted to add to the conversation real quick here at the end?
Alexis:
I would say, I think I've heard this come up in past podcasts, but I think it's really true for generational conversations as well. Your vibe attracts your tribe. Focus on your culture, what it means to work for the company you work for, what makes your employees them, and what really kind of is your heartbeat of your company. I think it's going to attract the right people no matter what, and you'll really be striving towards a more inclusive and healthy culture, whatever that means, and really celebrating differences in a positive light.
Callie:
One thing I'll add to the conversation too, as we're looking at becoming better HR practitioners or really looking at the way that we recruit individuals to our culture or to our organizations, take a good hard look at the years of experience you're looking for in the various roles that you post. Sometimes when we say, "This job needs five to seven years of experience and this specific skill," we're losing out on people who may have some really great opportunities or have had some really great experience in the past, but don't a hundred percent meet that qualification. And as we know, from past surveys and past conversations, I think on this podcast, we lose a lot of women who won't apply to jobs who don't match a hundred percent of the qualifications.
I just invite you to take a good, hard look at the jobs that you're posting and the amount of experience you're looking for, because sometimes that eliminates people who maybe don't have a ton of experience or who are younger or less experienced in their career. If you're looking to sort of build a more diverse culture from a generational or age perspective, that could be one place for you to start. With that, Alexis, I want to thank you for coming onto the podcast, talking with me about the dreaded generations in the workplace, or millennials in the workplace, if you will, conversation. But if people want to continue the conversation with you or reach out and connect, how can they do that?
Alexis:
Yeah, the best way to reach me is LinkedIn. My name is Alexis Fiocchi. I'll spell my last name. I know it's tricky. It's F-I-O-C-C-H-I. I believe I'm the only one out there, or there's only a few of us, so you'll see me. But yeah, LinkedIn would be great.
Callie:
Cool. Again, my name is Callie. I'm your host of the podcast. Last name Zipple. Z-I-P-P-L-E. Feel free to find me on LinkedIn, or you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at ShrmCalliez. As always, I invite you to visit our shrm.org/honesthr website. We've got a ton of stuff out there as far as overviews of the podcast is concerned. We also have a mechanism for you to suggest or point us to some topics or guests for upcoming episodes. As always, thanks so much for being here. We hope you'll come back to round out this mini series on diversity and inclusion next week with Clint. But thank you so much.
This episode is part two of mini series four. Next episode will be the final part of this mini series on diversity and inclusion. We'll provide you with the SHRM professional development or PDC code for listening at the end of the final episode of the mini series. You must listen to all parts of the mini series in order to use this PDC code towards your SHRM re-certification, so if you haven't done so already, please go back and listen to part one of this mini series featuring Jeremy York. Thanks for being SHRM certified, and as always for listening to our Honest HR podcast. Have a good one, everybody.