<p>Callie and Brittany dive into a discussion on disciplinary actions, how there are no "cookie cutter" rules, that you have to learn to be comfortable in the silence and how this is the no-fun part of HR practice.</p>
Callie and Brittany dive into a discussion on disciplinary actions, how there are no "cookie cutter" rules, that you have to learn to be comfortable in the silence and how this is the no-fun part of HR practice.
Callie Zipple:
Hi, everybody and welcome back to Honest HR, a podcast from SHRM. I am Callie Zipple and I am your host of this podcast, I'm excited to be back with another episode. If you are a first timer or if you've been with us before, I want to make sure you know that we try and give you new guests and new topics each week to keep you engaged. We want to make sure that we're offering a little bit of something to everybody and so if this topic or this guest isn't for you, make sure that you come back for future episodes because we do try and offer a little bit of everything for our listeners. And frankly, if you have topic or guest suggestions, visit shrm.org/honesthr and provide those to us as well, we'd love to hear from you.
But welcome back, I am excited to be here on today's episode with Brittany. Brittany and I are going to be talking about one of the greatest parts of HR, disciplinary actions and it's not glamorous, but frankly we've all probably had to deal with it. So I'm excited for Brittany to be here today to talk about this topic, which she actually suggested. So I didn't even have to loop her in or pull her into this topic, this was all her. So I'm excited that she's here. Brittany, would you mind taking a moment to share with us your story, where you've come from, where you're at and what HR means to you?
Brittany DiSciullo:
Sure. Thanks so much for having me, I'm really excited to be here. So a little bit about me, I'm originally from Richmond, Virginia, right now I live and work right outside of Washington, DC. I began my HR career actually working for a large IT staffing company. I was there for a number of years where I began as a recruiter, I realized I really liked HR and wanted to learn a little bit more about it.
So I dove into an HR coordinator role there while I was going to night school for my master's degree in HR and then I ended up in a diversity planning role. It actually focused on affirmative action and better end hiring. So when I left the company there, I moved over to a different industry, it was for a European grocery retailer. There I worked to help start up the HR department at the ground level and I worked with a team to help build all of the HR policies and procedures for the US market, focusing on employee relations.
Then I moved over to the federal contracting environment as a recruiting manager and then HR director. It was a veteran owned small business and now I'm currently the HR director at a financial company focusing in home lending. So I feel lucky to have had the opportunity to experience so many different industries along the way and actually work with a lot of amazing people and mentors. One thing I've learned about HR is it's fundamentally the same, pretty much what industry you're in, you can apply what you've learned at each place across the board, especially in disciplinary action.
Callie Zipple:
So I love your story and I love that so much of your story resonates with some of the previous episodes that we've done on this podcast. We just did one about starting in recruiting and finding your way into HR and how it's important to recognize the difference between those two functions, but at the same time, how they work within each other. So I love that you shared your story, I love that you've had so many great opportunities with various organizations and that you've found yourself in one that allows you to flex a little bit of your disciplinary action muscle. So, as I mentioned before, today's topic is disciplinary actions and it's the most probably unglamorous part about HR and as I said before, you suggested this one.
So I'm excited that you are here to talk about it just because it sounds like you have the experience in doing it and because it's, frankly, super important to our organizations and to our function in HR as a whole, to make sure that our employees know when they're doing something they shouldn't. So with all that said, let's get into it. I will say for our listeners, we're not here to talk about horror stories around disciplinary action or PIPs. So if that's why you're here, sorry to disappoint, but what we're going to be talking about today really is about having a metered and measured approach to discipline and the idea of disciplinary actions within organizations. So to start, what, in your opinion Brittany, are the pros to having a structured process to discipline and disciplinary actions?
Brittany DiSciullo:
I think there are many pros to having a structured process in place. I mean, as you mentioned, disciplinary action really is not something that's glamorous, it's actually probably my least favorite part of HR as well and that's why I felt that it was important to talk about it. Because as an HR professional, I was hoping that I could learn more from other people as well. I feel that consistency is very important for compliance purposes. Treating everyone the same, whether it's following a progressive discipline policy such as first a verbal and then a written warning or really whatever is appropriate for your organization. I think you really want employees to feel that whatever the concern is, harassment, bullying, et cetera, that they're going to be treated with respect and in the same way from HR and their managers. Unfortunately as HR professionals, we do always have to worry about possible discrimination claims or wrongful termination suits when dealing with disciplinary actions.
And it's really great if you have a structured process that you can fall back on to defend yourself and also your company should you ever need to. Structure also helps managers as well, so they can really learn it and understand what to expect when they find themselves in that situation. It definitely makes our lives easier in HR so we don't feel like we're reinventing the wheel each time and managers aren't coming to us with similar things every time it happens and not really having that structure again to pull from.
Callie Zipple:
And it's so funny that you say that, when we have a structured process we can fall back onto it. I remember having a structured process gave me so much more comfort when managers would come to me and said that they were having this difficult situation because I knew, okay, my step one is to fill out this form. Actually step one is to have an honest conversation and understand the situation. But after you've dived into the situation, it's okay, form one, form two, here's the follow up that I have to do, et cetera. It made me feel, as a practitioner and somebody who was early on in my career, that I had something structured to fall back on to make me feel more comfortable in the process.
Brittany DiSciullo:
You are absolutely right. That's exactly how I feel as well. It's for the managers, it's for the employees, but it's also for HR. I think it gives you that little vote of confidence of, "Okay, well, I did this last time, we saw how that played out and let's make sure we follow the exact same thing again." Of course, we know, depending on the certain situation that arises, you may not always start at step one with a verbal, you may have to move forward quickly to other actions. But again, it's always best to have that process and that structure for mental reasons as well.
Callie Zipple:
And I'm not suggesting that we ignore the human element in this process too, there are going to be hurt feelings and there are going to be some conversations that we need to have that need a little bit more human in them. So I'm not necessarily saying that you have a process, you have to work within those lines and that's it. We still, as adults and as humans, need to make sure that we're approaching the situation as we would any other situation.
Brittany DiSciullo:
Right, I absolutely agree with that as well. I mean, there's so much gray area in HR, we really can't just apply a cookie cutter rule to, "Oh, okay. You're having this problem and someone else did too so I'm going to do the exact same thing." So you really have to think about who the employee is, their background in the company and what specific issue they're having at that time to be able to emotionally connect and apply what you feel is right working within your structure.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah. I love that. And it really makes me realize how difficult really this process is, is making sure that you're following the right things and making sure that the employees and the managers feel heard throughout the process. So I love everything you shared and I'm excited, frankly, that this is the conversation we're having because I do think it's going to help some of our listeners walk through or get through these sorts of processes. So my second question is really specific to that manager. So we've talked a little bit about how important it is for managers to be part of this process, but how important do you feel that training a manager is in this process? We have to make sure that the managers understand why this process is in place and why it's important to both their wellbeing and their employees' wellbeing. So I really feel like training is a huge aspect of this process' success. So what are your thoughts on that?
Brittany DiSciullo:
I think manager training is extremely important. They need to be armed with the right tools to be prepared to deal with employee issues as they arise. Proper training eliminates a lot of uncertainty from the managers and also their employees as well. I feel like when the process is well known and followed correctly, it should be pretty clear what to expect if a policy is violated. I mean, it may even cut down on the employee issues that we have if they know and are aware that actions will be taken.
I have a quick example as I actually started a new job once. And within my first few weeks there, a manager came to me about a performance issue that the employee had been having and really wanted to terminate this person ASAP. I asked, "When did this behavior start?" He said, "Oh, it started about eight months to a year ago." So my first thought was, "Wow. And you waited this long?" So had he had the proper tools, this person could have been correctly managed a long time ago so we could take measures to deal with this and hopefully coach this person up so that we weren't at the breaking point at the end and then having to backtrack. So I think really collaborating with managers makes all the difference. I think they would be much more likely to follow the disciplinary process that HR sets forth if they feel like they have a say in it as well.
As we mentioned before, some departments may require a little tweaking of the process, we are all human and I think it should really depend on the type of position that you're helping with. For example, sales oriented positions may need a bit more serious disciplinary actions because you're really protecting the company's assets and confidential information. We, as HR need to know and understand the business that we're supporting so that we can be that strategic partner.
Callie Zipple:
And I love your example and I will be honest with you, I've been in situations where I am in a new job and a manager comes to me and says, "I want to fire this person right away, they have a bad attitude or they have a bad behavior." And I, being a little bit more naive and a little bit younger in my career, I don't think I asked as many questions as I probably should have. So I really appreciate you approaching that situation and asking those questions and really trying to understand what was leading to this situation because admittedly, that's not something that I have done in every single role and in every single one of these conversations as I had. So really getting that background information I think is important to these sorts of conversations and these sorts of approaches.
The other thing I'll mention too is an example that I have had in a previous role as it relates to managers and really leaning into this disciplinary action process. I have had managers approach the process differently in the same organization. So I have some managers that really like this PIP process, so they put a bunch of people onto the process and think they're using it for development opportunities. And then I have other managers who don't use the process at all, even though we know that there are people on their team that need some development. So I think it's important to make sure all managers are approaching the process the same and that the training that we're offering to one manager is resonating across the entire management population because having one manager approach the process one way and another manager approach the process a different way, really isn't going to look good for those employees.
Because imagine if an employee's working for one of those managers and then transfers to the other team, they're not going to know how to approach any sort of conversation around development or they're not going to get the appropriate direction from their new manager. So I just wanted to share that as well, that I really feel manager training is so important to this whole process.
Brittany DiSciullo:
Absolutely. And I think we can provide a lot of manager training, we could do in-person, we could do webinars, but no matter what, we're still always going to have that rogue manager that wants to do what they feel is right. And again, I think that's all about us as HR professionals trying to adapt to the situation and trying the best that we can to explain the process and how we feel it should be done.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah. And that actually leads great into my next question or my next point. And it's around this idea of HR being the hammer or what I've been called in previous roles, the angel of death. Because it feels like sometimes when HR is involved in all of these sorts of disciplinary action conversations, that we get that #hammer or #angel of death name when we don't really necessarily need that, it really should be the managers owning and driving this process rather than HR. So how can we empower our managers to really own this disciplinary action process and lean on HR only when they need to? If that makes sense.
Brittany DiSciullo:
Right. And I totally get what you mean by those angel of death references. Sometimes I feel like the Terminator coming in, we've all heard the jokes from employees, the 1-800HR/HR and it is awful to be thought of that way sometimes. Disciplinary actions, they're tough, they can be difficult for even the most experienced managers and HR professionals. We want managers to feel like they're aware of the process as we discuss with the training and then they have to use the process within their own teams and eventually become comfortable with it so it no longer is this big elephant in the room.
I've had many instances where managers have come to me and been extremely nervous about what to say, how to say it, especially in a termination situation. It's helpful to empower them by giving them guidance and maybe some ideas on what to say, what not to say and letting them use their personality and management style along with that. I'd also say the involvement by HR really depends on the manager that you're assisting as well. If a manager is relatively new, you might need to do a lot more coaching and have more meetings with the manager and maybe sit in on their meetings with the employee. If someone's more experienced, of course you may have to do less. You really need to feel out the situation and see, no matter how new or how experienced a manager is, is this a situation where you need a third party? Should the HR manager sit in on that? Or are we okay with the manager having that conversation by themselves?
And again, managers really should be driving the conversations, but ensure that HR knows about it and is aware of these actions for tracking purposes as well. Ultimately as HR, we want to be able to have their backs, to support our managers if something comes up in the future.
Callie Zipple:
I completely agree. And by no means, was I saying managers should do all the work and not ever tell HR because that's a little bit more unnerving, I think, than HR being deemed this angel of death. But I do think it's important for managers to drive the conversation because frankly it lends to their credibility. If an HR person is coming in and talking over a manager who happens to be sitting in that meeting and the employee leaves and says, "Geez, my manager didn't do anything." That's not a good look for the manager either. So I just think it's so important for HR to find ways to empower the managers, to drive that conversation, but still again, figure out a way to be privy to those conversations that are happening. Because I think HR absolutely needs to at least know when these conversations are happening and what the outcomes of those conversations are.
Brittany DiSciullo:
Right. Exactly. And I think all too often, HR is leaned upon to come in and do the dirty work and sweep up the assets happened. And what we really want is to empower managers, again, to actively manage their employees and have proactive conversations in meetings so that we aren't faced at the end with, "Oh no, this, this person is awful and they needed to have been gone a year ago and now I need you to help me and I need you to help me terminate them from their role immediately." So we definitely want to try and avoid that.
Callie Zipple:
I agree. And I think, and this is leading into my next conversation. As we mentioned, these conversations are not easy for managers and they're certainly not easy for HR practitioners to have, no matter at what level of your career. Sometimes we get more comfortable with these conversations, but they should always leave us with some sort of feeling afterwards, they should make us feel some sort of way afterwards because they're not easy and they are difficult conversations. So how can we better prepare for these conversations to make sure that they go as planned?
Brittany DiSciullo:
Preparing for hard conversations, I think, is incredibly important. This means having all the documentation in order, specific examples and really having the ability to think ahead about questions and answers that the employee might ask. I know as HR, I really don't like to be rushed into things, I like to try and take a step back, whether it's a few hours or it's a day, to really gather every piece of documentation, whether it's emails or examples in company systems or things like that and really go through everything with the manager. So for example, if you're going into a conversation with an employee, say it's a reduction in force or a layoff or something depressing such as that, the first question someone might ask is, well, why me? How did you choose that group? And HR and the managers really need to be in sync with the exact same story and never let it seem like you're shocked or you're confused by a question.
I mean, this only leads to uncertainty with the employee and might give them more of a reason to be upset about it. Mental toughness is a big part, I think, of all disciplinary actions. As an HR professional, I have personally dealt with this many times. As you mentioned, no matter how new or how experienced you are, it's hard to have these conversations, especially if you're considered to be a friendly person or a nice person and then you have this task at hand where you have to be really stern and really tough in what you're saying. And I think that you can absolutely be both. Many HR professionals, we're hired because we may have a friendly personality or be approachable to employees and it really can be difficult when you have to be the opposite of that and be the disciplinarian when needed as well.
So the good thing is that terminations and disciplinary actions, as we mentioned, I think it's much easier the more and more you do them. But again, no matter how experienced someone is, you can still have feelings towards a situation, I mean, again, we're all human. It might be easier if we were all robots, but unfortunately that's not the case. So you may leave with feelings of being sympathetic, maybe some sort of guilt or just overall icky feeling about the person or situation. And we're all human and we can't totally shut off those emotions and maybe that is also what makes us good at our job because we can relate in that way. So at the end of the day, it's definitely still hard when you have to make some of these tough decisions and you have that stress of what happened during the day that you're dealing with and have to process as HR, as a manager and it really helps if you have someone else to confide in.
Callie Zipple:
I love that you say icky because that is the most perfect way to describe the way that I feel sometimes walking out of those conversations, you just feel like you need a shower or you need a hug or you need to cuddle or something. It's just an icky feeling sometimes and unfortunately it's hard to avoid. The only thing that I would add to your thoughts on preparing is number one, if you don't know the answer to a question that you're being asked, don't wing it. I have been guilty of that and frankly, I think I've cost my companies money in saying, "Oh yeah, sure. We can definitely talk about reimbursing your tuition," or something like that. If you don't know the answer, don't pretend like you do because you really don't want to, in that moment, show your cards.
So just say something like, "You know what? I don't know the answer. I appreciate the question, I will absolutely come back to you with an answer as soon as I can." Making them feel heard in and during that conversation is another thing that we need to learn how to prepare for. So just making sure that you're being comfortable with the silence and being comfortable not talking, if the other person wants to talk and has some things to get off their chest, we have to feel comfortable sitting there and listening because it's a difficult thing for them to be waiting through and it's a difficult thing for us as well. So we have to recognize that in the other person and just let them handle the situation as they need to.
Brittany DiSciullo:
I really liked what you said about being comfortable with the silence. I think that is a great point and it's one of the hardest things to do. I think naturally when you're having an uncomfortable conversation with someone, you just want to keep talking and talking and fill that awkward space. But I would say some of the best conversations I've had is when I've mentally said, "Okay, I'm going to stop talking, I'm going to let it simmer, let this employee think it through, collect themselves before we finish the conversation." I thought that was a great point.
Callie Zipple:
And another thing I have done that has helped me is just to repeat myself sometimes. If I really can't be comfortable with the silence, because you're right, it is really hard and I haven't been able to master that yet, I talk very fast and just a lot. So sometimes I find myself just repeating myself and that way I'm not necessarily entering anything else into that negative space, but I'm filling the silence with something that person has already heard and maybe that helps them resonate a little bit more with what I've said. But ideally silence is where I would live if you can, but if you can't, find other ways to be comfortable with that conversation because it is a tough one. So one of the other things you mentioned as we were going is having somebody to lean on or having someone you can run things by.
I don't know when you said it and I think it might have been right at the end of your last comment, but having somebody that we can seek input from during these sorts of conversations or before or after them is so important mainly for our mental health. So how can we make sure as HR professionals that we have these good relationships, either with our legal counsel or some other trusted advisor? If there should be a transition that needs to happen as a result of this disciplinary action, how can we make sure that these relationships are in a good place and in good shape should we need to do some handoffs or those sorts of things?
Brittany DiSciullo:
I think having a trusted advisor, confidant is extremely helpful for many reasons, like you said. We should not be afraid to seek input from others before moving forward. I mean, there are so many situations where you might need just a second opinion or to run it by someone to help you mentally process it. Especially if you're new to an organization where you may not fully understand the office politics or the whole history behind that, it can be really helpful that you seek your legal counsel or another trusted person in the HR department to make sure that you don't get stuck in the middle of fighting someone else's battle that may have been there before you joined.
Or even if you are seasoned at your employer and maybe something just doesn't feel right or you just can't seem to come to a clear conclusion in your head, having an outside opinion and of course, someone again, who you trust with confidential matters is really important. I think anyone in HR comes to realize quickly that HR and legal cross paths all the time. Many of us as HR, we do not have law degrees and we really straddle the line a lot of interpreting different laws and situations.
So I think it's so important to try and seek out your legal counsel at your company and develop that relationship that hopefully you can trust this person and bounce ideas off of this person, especially in the really sticky termination situations. I feel like I can honestly say I learned something new each week, in human resources, I feel like you can never really stop learning, you can think you've seen it all and then the next day something totally new comes and erupts. So there's so many gray area situations and anomalies that can occur so I think it's really important to keep your eyes open and to be able to go to your trusted advisor or confidant when you need to do that.
Callie Zipple:
I love that. And frankly, when I've gone to legal counsel or other individuals on the legal team and asked some feedback, the way that they think of things is often different than the way that we think of things. So they are able to shed various lights on the situation that maybe we hadn't heard of before. And I have learned so much from having conversations with various legal individuals that I've worked with before, simply because I hadn't thought of it the way that they had. And so I think that's also a benefit if we're trying to learn as much as we can day in and day out, getting as much input or as much insight from people who think differently than us is a really great way to do that, I think as well.
Brittany DiSciullo:
Absolutely. Especially those in a different discipline than us. Of course, a lawyer is taught to maybe think a little differently. Especially when typing emails or memos, I found it extremely helpful to get that second set of eyes to make sure what you're saying does not have any extra maybe legal implications that you would've just never thought of as an HR professional.
Callie Zipple:
Yes. Because it's in writing now and it'll never go away. So you're absolutely right, getting a second set of eyes on something you're putting in writing is a huge, great idea for us to consider. So with that, those are all the questions I have for you. So is there anything else, final remarks or closing remarks you want to share with our listeners around this really glamorous topic of disciplinary actions?
Brittany DiSciullo:
I hope that this was helpful. Like I said, I really enjoy learning from others and talking it through, it is not a glamorous topic and again, it's really not my favorite part of HR and I'm sure for most people it's not because it's difficult and like we say, our favorite word icky. So I think it's great, again, that you have an HR podcast and a forum where we can have honest conversations and discuss topics such as this.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah. And the only thing I will add for our listeners is if you don't have a formal process in place for your disciplinary actions, I would encourage you to consider that because as we've talked through this whole episode, having a measured approach to these sorts of conversations will absolutely help you and your managers down the road. So Brittany, thank you again for being here. If our listeners wanted to reach out and just learn a little bit more about your past, your experiences in HR or disciplinary actions, how can they contact you?
Brittany DiSciullo:
Sure. I can absolutely be contacted through LinkedIn. My profile is Brittany DiSciullo. My last name is hard to spell. So it is D-I-S-C-I-U-L-L-O. Feel free to send me a message and I'd be happy to hear from you. And thank you again, Callie, for having me.
Callie Zipple:
Yeah, absolutely. It was a great conversation and I think we absolutely have given our listeners things to think about during this episode. So thank you again for being on the show. If our listeners want to contact me again, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm also on Twitter and Instagram at SHRMCallieZ. As I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, feel free to go out to our shrm.org/honesthr website, we've got a whole bunch of information out there and various things that you can do to stay up to date with the things that we're doing here on Honest HR. If you're interested in being a guest or have a topic you want to hear about in upcoming episodes, feel free to drop us a line. And thank you again for coming out and we'll see you next time for another episode of Honest HR.