<p>Just in time – did you know it’s National Disability Employment Awareness Month! On the 30th anniversary of the landmark Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), host Amber Clayton dives into a discussion with Jennifer Sheehy and Louis Orslene from the DOL. Don’t miss this episode and find out if you know what is considered a "reasonable accommodation" under the ADA in 2020. </p><p><b>Key episode takeaway:</b> "We protect individuals by requiring employers to make “reasonable accommodations"</p><p>---</p><p><b>EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING</b></p><p>Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All you have to do is listen to a full mini-series to earn PDCs! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast recording itself.<br /><br /></p><p>The Honest HR podcast is only one of SHRM's podcast offerings. And currently, it is the only one approved for recertification PDCs.</p>
Just in time – did you know it’s National Disability Employment Awareness Month! On the 30th anniversary of the landmark Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), host Amber Clayton dives into a discussion with Jennifer Sheehy and Louis Orslene from the DOL. Don’t miss this episode and find out if you know what is considered a "reasonable accommodation" under the ADA in 2020.
Key episode takeaway: "We protect individuals by requiring employers to make “reasonable accommodations"
---
EARN SHRM RECERTIFICATION PDCs FOR LISTENING
Honest HR podcast episodes will help you build your competencies while earning professional development credits (PDCs) toward your SHRM-CP/SHRM-SCP recertification! All you have to do is listen to a full mini-series to earn PDCs! All relevant details, including the Activity IDs, are provided during the podcast recording itself.
The Honest HR podcast is only one of SHRM's podcast offerings. And currently, it is the only one approved for recertification PDCs.
Gloria St. Clair Miller:
Welcome to The Honest HR podcast, the show that explores the uncomfortable, complicated, and sometimes wonderful truths of the workplace.
Amber Clayton:
We're here to have honest conversations, giving you the good, the bad and the ugly side of HR. Nothing is off the table.
Wendy Fong:
This is a SHRM podcast approved to provide SHRM CP and SHRM SCP recertification PDCs. Details will be provided inside each qualifying episode. I'm Wendy Fong.
Amber Clayton:
I'm Amber Clayton.
Gloria St. Clair Miller:
And I'm Gloria St. Clair Miller, and we are your three hosts.
Amber Clayton:
Hello everyone. And welcome back. I'm your host, Amber Clayton director of SHRM's Knowledge Center. On our episode today, we are going to discuss the Americans With Disabilities Act. I am pleased to be joined by Jennifer Sheehy, deputy assistant secretary and Louis Orslene, supervisory policy advisor for the US Department of Labor's Office of Disability Employment Policy, which I'll refer to as the DOL and ODEP going forward. Today, we'll be discussing the Americans with Disabilities Act, the ADA. Legislation that helps increase access and opportunities for individuals with disabilities. This is a special year as July 6th marked the 30th anniversary of the ADA and October is National Disability Employment Awareness month. Jennifer and Louis, thank you for joining me today. Disability questions are among our top five asked in the knowledge center by our members. So Jennifer, for our listeners who may not be familiar with ODEP, could you tell us what it is and what your role is with ODEP?
Jennifer Sheehy:
Sure. And first Amber, thank you so much for having us here today. We are right now, always looking for bright spots in this environment. And one of the bright spots we have this year, is the 30th anniversary, but it's also the 75th anniversary of National Disability Employment Awareness month, and ODEP, Office of Disability Employment Policy takes the lead on the theme for what we call NDEAM. And thank you for mentioning it, increasing access and opportunity. And we try to really look at everything that's going on in communities and businesses and other federal and state agencies, where people are celebrating the ADA and NDEAM and using those two opportunities to really promote the talents and contributions that people with disabilities can bring to the workplace. So back to your original question, what is ODEP? We are a young federal agency. We were established in just 2001, and we're part of the US department of Labor.
Our mission, is to develop and influence policies that increase the number of quality of employment opportunities for people with disabilities. To advance this mission, we coordinate both internally with our sister department of labor offices, but most importantly, we partner with organizations like SHRM. It is critically important, because we do offer policy guidance and technical assistance to employers. It's critically important that we have partnerships with organizations like SHRM, so that we can hear about your members priorities and challenges and opportunities and successes they have in recruiting, hiring and advancing people with disabilities. SHRM is in fact, one of our oldest longstanding partnerships, we are very, very grateful. So thank you on behalf of ODEP and the Department of Labor. So my role, I'm deputy assistant secretary for ODEP. I'm leading the agency right now. We generally have a political assistant secretary, but we haven't had an appointee for quite a while, actually since March of 2015.
So I've been keeping that seat warm and leading the agency, but it's been an amazing experience. Before, I let my colleague Louis introduce himself in his work, I do want to say that personally, I'm so grateful for the ADA and for businesses like your members, because in 1990, I did not have a disability and I knew about the ADA, because I worked for a hotel downtown in DC, and we knew about the ADA. We had two years to make all the changes necessary before the ADA was effective for our company. And we had already made changes, because as a hotel in the hospitality field, we care most about our customers experience in the hotel. And so, we were embarrassed when people in wheelchairs or who had physical mobility, impairments, or other disabilities couldn't access the guest services the way everyone else did.
So we had already made some changes, but the ADA was actually helpful to us, because it gave us standards by which we could ensure that our guests would have that same experience as anyone else. And then four years later, coincidentally, I had a spinal cord injury and I ended up using a wheelchair. By that time I was in business school and I wasn't working for the hotel anymore, but I realized, wow, how lucky am I that the ADA was passed four years ago and I get to enjoy the benefits of the ADA. And certainly it set me on a path of working with employers like I'm doing now in the field of increasing employment for people with disabilities. So that's, a little long winded answer to your first question, but I hope that was helpful.
Amber Clayton:
No, it's great. And thank you so much for sharing your personal experience. I know that when you and I had talked previously, I have my own personal experience with my mother who has polio and she's had polio since she was two years old. And so, I'm thankful for the ADA as well for her, and she's been able to work for many years with accommodations and it's been wonderful. So Louis, could you tell us a little bit about your role with ODEP?
Louis Orslene:
Sure. I'm relatively new to ODEP. I've been here for a couple of months now, but really over the last 12 years I've been providing leadership at one of the TA centers. One of the technical centers called the Job Accommodation Network, but I've come to ODEP now and providing leadership on what's called the employer and workplace policy team. So what we really do, is look at the policy issues and the barriers that employers are facing as they recruit, hire, and retain in advance individuals with disabilities. And our team manages one of the three TA centers that ODEP has, actually, I provide leadership now for EARN, which is the Employer Assistance and Resource Network on disability. And what we do is we encourage the adoption and implementation of disability employment policies and practices that really meet the needs of the private and public employers and individuals with disabilities. In short, what we really do is we work to decrease barriers and to increase workplace inclusion for people with disabilities. So that's, a little bit about what I do on the employer and workplace policy team.
Amber Clayton:
That's great. Thank you. And speaking of JAN, the Job accommodation Network, I'll say that before I came to SHRM, over eight years ago, almost nine now, I actually used to use SHRM as resources. I was a member of SHRM, but I also used the Job Accommodation Network to help me out when I was hiring individuals with disabilities. They had great resources with regards to providing accommodations that I wouldn't even have thought of before. And I can recall actually talking to someone at JAN at the time to help me out with a particular situation that I had when I was an HR practitioner out in the field. So one of the questions that we actually had recently from a member was about the history of the ADA. And I thought this is very fitting, considering it's the 30th anniversary. So Jennifer, can you give us just a little history about the ADA and why this particular year is important?
Jennifer Sheehy:
Absolutely. Going way, way back, I'll give you little bit of a picture of the evolution of civil rights laws and employment laws that pertained to people with disabilities. The first laws really were promulgated passed in 1938. And those laws really set up separate employment opportunities, programs, services for people with disabilities, so that employers would hire only people with disabilities and they would operate in what we would consider today, more of a segregated setting, but before that there were no employment opportunities for people with disabilities. And then a few decades later building on the civil rights laws of 1964 and then the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, the ADA looked at what had been laid as a foundation and created the writers of the ADA put steps in place, provisions to ensure non-discrimination by employers, for people with disabilities before the ADA was passed.
There was so much collaboration with employer organizations, looked at kind of what was practical, what would be particularly reasonable to expect employers to do. So the input by employers was critically important. Also, what was important was that civil rights groups, non disability groups supported the ADA and were very instrumental in the ADA's passing. So there was a lot of negotiation about what would be required by employers, how to benefit people with disabilities. And in 1990, the ADA was passed. The cornerstone of the ADA and title one, there were five titles in the ADA and title one, is the employment title. The cornerstone, as you mentioned, is really accommodations and employers had some anxiety about what that would mean. And one of the reasons that JAN was so important was because they really needed help. Employees needed help too. Employees with disabilities were given an opportunity to work in integrated settings in competitive employment.
And they had questions about what would help them work successfully and productively too. So the job accommodation network would work with both the supervisors, the businesses and the employees to talk about different types of accommodations. And the ADA was very particular about explaining that an accommodation was required, but it had to be reasonable. The supervisor also decides what accommodations from an array of accommodations that might work for the individual. The supervisor decides which accommodation they're going to approve and try. So I think that's a very important part of the ADA's requirements for employers. It was meant to help people with disabilities of course, the definition now after the 2008 ADA amendments, is very broad, but it's meant to be inclusive, because it's meant to ensure that anybody has an opportunity to work. So the accommodation that is where it's really important to work together between the supervisor and the employee in what they call the interactive process to figure out what the best accommodation will be to ensure that someone is productive.
And I do have to say that since 1990, so much has taken place in our environment, including all the technology advances. Accommodations are much less expensive, technology accommodations than they were in 1990. When I was in business school and I had my voice recognition software, it was $6,000 and I had a vocational rehabilitation program that paid for it, so I could go to school. Now, it costs nothing. Everyone in the department of labor has access to the same voice recognition software that I use now. I don't like to tell anyone because with it, I can type 150 words a minute, and it makes me even more productive than some of my non-disabled colleagues, but everybody could actually access it.
So this is the type of accommodation and story we like to see, because it just shows that it's all becoming routine for employers and the prices are dropping for accommodations. More than 60 or about 60% of accommodations don't cost anything and this is research that the Job Accommodation Network has done. And when they do have a cost, the typical average cost of those types of accommodations of most accommodations is only about $500. And individuals of course need different accommodations, so it does vary, but the type of accommodations, the thought of accommodations really should not be difficult or anxiety producing or expensive.
Amber Clayton:
And I will just follow up on what you mentioned earlier about supervisors. They're the ones that actually decide what the accommodation is, because that's a question that we get often from our members, is do we have to provide the accommodation that the employee wants? Sometimes an employee might ask for something specific that might be more expensive when there's actually an alternative that can be less expensive, but there can be alternatives, it doesn't necessarily have to be the accommodation that the employee wants. And that's why it's important to talk to your employer and have that interactive process to determine what else could be done that might be less costly or that can be beneficial to both the employer and the employee.
Jennifer Sheehy:
That's right. And I will add that now, JAN has been around long enough that they've done more than 1 million of these consultations. So they really have an amazing array of resources and ideas for any type of job, any type of disability. So it can be very, very helpful to employers.
Louis Orslene:
I think Jennifer gave us like the perfect example really of thinking about the question that you just asked. I think some employers will, if there's a very specific ask made of an individual with a disability requesting some kind of assistive technology. And for us, for instance, they'll ask for a brand name screen reader. Sometimes there's just sort of this reluctance at first, it's sort of Cadillac, top of the line, but what employers really need to think about and really talk about with the individual, is what's been successful in the past, because say for instance, again, we'll use the example of the software that Jennifer uses. So Jennifer knows how to do it. She knows she's fluent, it's installed on her computer. It makes her so much more productive, more productive than most employees at work.
So I just encourage employers not to be shortsighted. And oftentimes when somebody's asking for something very specific it's because their acumen is very high and their knowledge is very high of that software. And in the end, it may be a little more expensive upfront than perhaps maybe a free downloadable software, but it'll make them more effective, it'll be more productive for them and in essence, more productive for the business. So I really encourage employers to, in that interactive process, not only find out what that person needs, but take it a step further. "Why do you need that?" And there's a lot of cost savings like I said, increase in productivity, if you really meet that employee where they are, give them what they need and then they can just hit the road running.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely. So we're in the pandemic still, not necessarily the height of it, but it sounds like from what we're hearing on the news, that possibly there's going to be a second wave of increases in COVID. And along with that, we've had a lot of questions from our members around accommodations during this time. But in light of the pandemic, can an employer require employees to undergo COVID 19 testing and also request test results, whether they're positive or negative? And I know there's been some guidance on this from the equal employment opportunity commission, the EEOC. So Louis, could you help us out with that particular question?
Louis Orslene:
So very good question. And we know that employers are really grappling with this. The short answer is yes, employers can require employees to undergo testing to determine their COVID status as you and probably many of your members know, the ADA requires that a mandatory medical test of employees has to be job related and consistent with business necessity. So what we do is then for an employer conducting their analysis, what we really need to do is apply this standard then to this COVID situation. And really, I would encourage employers not to make this too complex, because the accommodation process is similar COVID or no COVID, but let's look at this standard, for instance. So employers may take screening steps to determine if the employees entering the workplace have COVID. And why? Because, an individual who has a virus may pose a direct threat to others.
And the direct threat standard, is its circumstances whereby this individual with COVID might be present in the workplace and could impose significant risk or harm to the business, to other employees. So this really is based on the March 2020 guidance of the CDC and public health authorities. So COVID 19 meets the direct threat standard. So that's, really important for employers to understand. So in all then, an employer may choose to administer a COVID test and have the results known before permitting all employees. And again, all employees, we're not going to discriminate against individuals with disabilities, which we believe may be perhaps because of their immune status could possibly have COVID 19. So we're not going to discriminate. We're going to give this exam, this test to all employees before they enter the workplace. And then we may also even want to periodically test the employees as well.
And I really want to note here that the ADA does not interfere with employers following recommendations of the CDC or any other public health authorities regarding whether when or whom testing or screening is appropriate. Testing administered by employers, consistent with current CDC guidance meets the ADA business necessity standard. So again, very important to know that for employers that they're safe in conducting this testing. One little caveat, and I just want to remind employers, it's really important that any such testing is a medical exam, and that of course needs to be kept separately and confidentially from the employees' personnel records. So that's, really important, but again, that is the same under any circumstance COVID or no COVID.
Amber Clayton:
Great. And I think that's going to have people wondering, well, if we have one person who has symptoms of COVID, can we ask that one individual to go get tested for COVID?
Louis Orslene:
Again, I would think that if you're exhibiting symptoms and I could certainly follow up on this to be sure, but I would certainly think that if you're exhibiting symptoms, you're not choosing that individual because they have a known disability, you would instead be choosing them because they will be a direct threat to other employees. So I believe you would be within every right to do that.
Amber Clayton:
And I'm not an attorney, so I cannot interpret the law, but that is my understanding as well. So I would agree with you Louis.
Louis Orslene:
And I'll caution the listeners as well, that we do not provide legal advice. Again, we're a technical assistant center. We interpret guidances. So I just want to add that as well. So you would always want to confirm with your legal team.
Amber Clayton:
Exactly. And that's the same thing with the knowledge center as well. We are former HR practitioners, just like many of our listeners and we are not attorneys, so we don't provide legal advice, but we do provide guidance and resources to help our members with their HR related questions. So the other questions that we've gotten from members are around employees who are older than 65 and pregnant employees, anyone who may have a compromised immune system and for those individuals, would you say that they're automatically eligible for a reasonable accommodation under the ADA?
Louis Orslene:
Sure. And again, I'll start with the simple answer, and then I'll sort of go through the analysis. So the simple answer is no. The ADA doesn't really require an employer to accommodate employees without disabilities. So what we have to do very much as we would do in non COVID times, if there's such a terminology, is that we would need to go through that interactive process. We know that people, 65 years and older, or women who are pregnant or people even with other disabilities may have a higher risk for complications for a coronavirus, but nobody's automatically qualified to receive accommodations under the ADA solely on that basis. Again, to be covered, an employee must have a disability. There must be some connection. And the employer can ask questions and sort of do the discovery necessary to find out what's the connection between the impairment and the special need for the accommodation.
And this is why it's really imperative too, to have those good policies and practices in place to guide managers through this interactive process. And in particularly in COVID times, this is all new to us, and there are just nuances and there're various guidances out there by various federal agencies. So this is in particular why I really appreciate you having Jennifer and I on today, so we can do some of that clarification. And just as a reminder too, the ADA does not specifically call out and provide a list of impairments that qualify as a disability, but many of the conditions that are called out like diabetes, heart disease, lung disease, immuno deficiency that we spoke of, we know that there're almost always disabilities under the law. And we know that people who are 65 or older, there may be some propensity to have those chronic health conditions.
So as such then, these employees really wouldn't be asking for reasonable accommodation based on age. Again, they would be entering the interactive process and the employer would need to do the analysis, because they very well may be considered disabled and therefore would have every right to request and have a reasonable accommodation. Now really, in the circumstance of pregnancy, a little bit different, but similar. Women may have a medical condition such as anemia, gestational diabetes, a preeclampsia that may in themselves be considered disabilities under the ADA, even though pregnancy itself is not an ADA disability. So if an employee makes a pregnancy related request for accommodation, again, the ADA rules apply, the employer would want to go through the interactive process, do their analysis, do their discovery, and really understand the situation, because that woman may very well be covered because of a pregnancy related disability.
Amber Clayton:
Many employers actually question whether or not pregnancy alone is considered a disability. And this is something that we do talk to them about and provide them guidance on. I believe there's even something within the Job Accommodation Network that specifically talks about that pregnancy alone is not considered a disability, that someone could have a pregnancy related disability such as the ones that you mentioned. And thank you also for mentioning that there's not a list of disabilities per se, because that's something that we do get questions on often, is this particular medical condition a disability under the ADA.
And sometimes there is guidance like with cancer, for example, or psychiatric disabilities. There may be something in the guidance from the EEOC related to that. But unfortunately, there's just not a all inclusive list of everything that would be considered a disability, which is why it's really important to make sure that you sit down and talk to those employees and try to understand further what disability they potentially have. Another question that we've gotten during this COVID period is providing reasonable accommodations. So if they've had employees within the workplace who had reasonable accommodations while they were working here prior to COVID, and now they're working from home, does the employer still have to provide a reasonable accommodation for them?
Louis Orslene:
And again, let's do simple answer first. Yes. So assuming that the employer had engaged in that robust interactive process, we're assured that they have a disability, they have been provided accommodations in the past. Then absolutely. Then they're satisfying everything they need to in order to gain that reasonable accommodation. So yes, we would still have a responsibility there. What's important really, is whether the accommodation is effective. So that's, the person is probably asking for additional accommodations, which may be related to the telework setting. And it may be something about all of these sophisticated communication systems that we're using these days.
And yes, the employer then would still have that responsibility to open up the dialogue again, to reengage with that individual and really understand why are they asking that question. Obviously, it's probably due to, they don't feel like they're being effective, they're not being productive and that there is some kind of barrier or challenge. So the employer really needs to ensure that the ongoing accommodations are effective and just reengage, that's all, just reengage with the individual. So the inclusion of that then, so it's just the fact that the individual or rather that the disability is unrelated to COVID 19, is never grounds to discontinue an accommodation. We still need to reengage with that employee and to figure out what's going on and what's behind this question.
Amber Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely. We actually have at SHRM an initiative called Getting Talent Back to Work. And part of that initiative, is to encourage employers to hire from untapped talent pools, such as veterans, older workers, individuals who are formerly incarcerated and individuals with disabilities. So why do you think Jennifer, there's a disconnect sometimes between employers and hiring individuals with disabilities?
Jennifer Sheehy:
Well, it is a complicated question or it's a complicated answer that there are a number of things it's both kind of tangible reasons and the intangible. I would say employers, we're all humans. Every human has a different understanding of disability that they learn when they're growing up. And as you just mentioned, and Louis just mentioned, there are so many different types of disabilities that picture in someone's head, maybe based on a negative. So if somebody says, "Would you hire someone with a disability?" They may be thinking of someone that in their experience may be based on someone when they were younger, who could not do something. Instead, we look at what people can do and what assets they bring to the workplace. So the understanding, it's all about education. Employers, if they don't know about Job Accommodation Network, if they haven't worked with people with disabilities or they think they have worked with people with disabilities, then they may think that barrier is insurmountable.
It really is, its constant education, constant awareness. Fortunately pre pandemic, we saw the best employment rates for people with disabilities. When employers are really looking for talent, then they became more open to hiring from untapped resources like you were just talking about, including people with disabilities. And they realized that the accommodations were not onerous or expensive, and they hired people with disabilities and had good experiences. The more good experiences that employers have, of course they are going to hire more. So there is a provision in the Rehabilitation Act, section 503, that governs non-discrimination for federal contractors. Federal contractors have an obligation to be proactive now in disability inclusion. And that also comes with a requirement to count the number of people with disabilities. So self-identification, is really important. That means that they need to ask their workforce voluntarily, if they have a disability.
They're realizing by raising awareness and talking about different disabilities and particularly when leadership talks about disabilities, they might have somebody who's been working effectively for 20 years with bipolar disorder or diabetes or a back condition or low vision, and may say, "Oh my gosh, I have a disability. I am one of those people, count me in." So it's complicated. It's several pronged, but what we're seeing is that people with disabilities are realizing they are people with disabilities, they're being counted. What happens in federal contractors often becomes routine in non-federal contractors too. Because, everybody wants to be the best place to work for talented individuals. And so, we're certainly seeing that people with disabilities are gaining recognition and are being hired in pre pandemic, hired in higher numbers than ever before. There was a recent Accenture study of the top performing companies and what we would maybe call acquired.
So companies that are very progressive in inclusive strategies. So they're hiring, they're recruiting, they're partnering with disability organizations. They have ways for employees with disabilities to engage. They have top level leadership commitment to hiring people with disabilities. Those companies tend to perform on the basic financial indicators better than other companies as well. So that, was a terrific study that really quantified the efforts, the inclusion efforts, and ensuring that you're not ignoring, missing or excluding talent that could help your business be productive. So I do think the more that employers become aware of the Job Accommodation Network, what other employers are doing and increasing their awareness of the different types of disabilities that they'll see and be able to reap the benefits of hiring people with disabilities too.
Amber Clayton:
Absolutely. Thank you. Where should employers go to learn more about recruiting and working with individuals with disabilities?
Jennifer Sheehy:
So they could go to our website, dol.gov/odep and all the resources that Louis talked about that you've mentioned, Amber, thank you for being a wonderful champion of people with disabilities and of our resources. You can find those resources through our website. Two more that I'll quickly mention too, are on the EARN website. So you can also go to askearn.org. We have a mental health toolkit, that's become really important right now, certainly in a pandemic setting when employees, all employees are experiencing greater anxiety, stress, and uncertainty.
Our mental health toolkit shows employers how to set up mental wellness supports in the workplace, with videos and wonderful practical strategies. We have profiles of companies and what they're doing during a pandemic to support all their employees' mental health, but also how they're supporting people with disabilities. And then I'll mention our partnership on employment and accessible technology that will help employers ensure that their websites, online job applications, any technology they use in employment, how they can ensure that's accessible to people with disabilities. But you don't need to know all of those different websites, just come to dol.gov/odep
Amber Clayton:
Wonderful and Louis, would you like to add anything?
Louis Orslene:
I would. Thanks Amber, for that opportunity. I'm also thinking that many of your questions were COVID related. So at askearn.org, we have a publication that we're updating currently and revising as more information comes through and that's called COVID 19 and job applicants and employees with disabilities emerging practices to employ and protect workers. So you can find that again under askearn.org, under publications. So if anyone wants to know more and wants to be able to tease out the intersection of COVID 19 and the ADA, that would be a great publication to read through. That publication is developed in collaboration with Cornell University and Bobby Silverstein. One of the architects of the ADA, a great publication, very clear, very practical, very relevant,
Amber Clayton:
Wonderful. And thank you both so much for those resources. And I should mention also that the SHRM Foundation does work to mobilize the power of HR and empower HR as a social force. They create innovative solutions to workplace inclusion challenges. We actually provide HR professionals with a free educational program. The program is aimed at increasing HR professional's knowledge on hiring, developing, advancing, and retaining individuals with disabilities. You can visit employingabilities.org for more information.
So Jennifer in Louis, I can't thank you enough for being here and discussing this really important topic today. I hope that our listeners enjoyed the program and have learned something new. We've come to the end of our show. Please subscribe, so you'll never miss an episode and be sure to rate and review the show wherever you listen to podcast. Feel free to reach out to me. You could find me on Twitter @SHRMaClayton. That's @SHRMaClayton, and I'm also in LinkedIn.
If you search my name, Amber Clayton, and if you'd like to learn more about the Honest HR podcast, head over to shrm.org/honesthr. Thanks again for joining us on Honest HR. Thank you again, Jennifer and Louis, and we hope to see you here again soon. Thank you.
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